Atheism
16 years ago
Posts: 617
Quote from Azari02
First of all there is viable evidence that Santa Claus (who you mean anyway) does not exist. There is no deductive evidence that evolution exists or any possible way things exist without a designer. If you look at it from a logical and "Scientic" standpoint then one should understand that both the theory of creaton and the theory of evolution (or any theory with an atheistic paradigm) are at the LEAST on equal grounds, evidence wise (which is my whole point... it requires faith to accept). Your analogy is faulty.
Now wait just a minute.
I can't just ignore what you said here.
I believe you have a very wrong view of what the theory of evolution entails. Even going as far as to claim creatonism is on equal grounds.
First of, evolution has had many years of continues research put into it, even now. years of studying fossils, earth samples and what not. After years of research, Darwin finally wrote his theory of evolution.
Now creatonism is just thinking what some crackpot wrote in a book some 1940 years ago (because the bible was written some 60 years after Jesus' alleged death), without any logical or scientific basis.
And then theres Intelligent Design. Which is just another form of creationism since it has about as much proof.
Second, unlike many people think, evolution is not a broken theory. It can explain pretty much all aspects of how life originated on this little planet, just not the why.
Yes you are right, evolution is a very complex system and depends a very strict set of circumstances to get moving. But consider this. Let's say the chances of those circumstances occuring are one in a million. Now, the universe is immeasurably large with billions of planets. Wouldn't it be logical for at least one of those to develop life?
Do but despise reason and science,
The highest of all human gifts -
Then you have surrendered to the Devil
And must surely perish. - J.W. von Goethe
16 years ago
Posts: 250
Quote from The Guy
Now wait just a minute.
I can't just ignore what you said here.
I believe you have a very wrong view of what the theory of evolution entails. Even going as far as to claim creatonism is on equal grounds.
First of, evolution has had many years of continues research put into it, even now. years of studying fossils, earth samples and what not. After years of research, Darwin finally wrote his theory of evolution.
Now creatonism is just thinking what some crackpot wrote in a book some 1940 years ago (because the bible was written some 60 years after Jesus' alleged death), The old testament was written more than a thousand years before Jesus' death and only the new testament was written not some 60 years but much less after Jesus was crucified.. Im pretty tired to keep going but I dare you to challenge the evidence behind the crucifixion with true and honest research as well (there are so many eye witnesses of jesus after his death, the empty tomb, how so much other theories of how he really didnt die that way are wrong.) furthermore the bible wasn't written by "some crackpot" but has over 40 authors and they all lived in different time frames spanning over 1000 years yet if u read it u can understand none contradict each other and theres also prophecy that has been proven etc. etc.
Any I'm done for today its late here and have school tomorrow and i just want to say that I am in no way angry or arguing with you guys and you are all still awesome people since you all love manga like me and you guys rock ^^...
16 years ago
Posts: 617
Quote from Azari02
The old testament was written more than a thousand years before Jesus' death and only the new testament was written not some 60 years but much less after Jesus was crucified.. Im pretty tired to keep going but I dare you to challenge the evidence behind the crucifixion with true and honest research as well (there are so many eye witnesses of jesus after his death, the empty tomb, how so much other theories of how he really didnt die that way are wrong.) furthermore the bible wasn't written by "some crackpot" but has over 40 authors and they all lived in different time frames spanning over 1000 years yet if u read it u can understand none contradict each other and theres also prophecy that has been proven etc. etc.
Oh right, I forgot about that one, my bad.
But still, as far as I remember, there certainly are several contradicting stories within the bible, both new and old testaments.
Besides that, your claims of proof of jesus' crucifixion and rise from the dead, is sketchy at best. Such detailed and specific occurances leave very little convincing evidence after so many years.
And then theres your provecies. No where in the bible is there any real clear speech. With such unclear use of words, anyone can predict the future. Call a psychic hotline, they will give you such broad answers that they can apply to pretty much anything.
But this discussion is going no where. Someone like me only values clear and convincing evidence and the bible has absolutely no value to me as an argument.
While for you, you value the bible and the words written in it over any evidence you find.
Our values are complete opposites, and thus our discussion will never get anywhere.
Do but despise reason and science,
The highest of all human gifts -
Then you have surrendered to the Devil
And must surely perish. - J.W. von Goethe
16 years ago
Posts: 26
Quote from deathinvenice
The most rational stand to take is to disbelieve something until proven otherwise, otherwise we would have all kinds of crazy beliefs. Null hypothesis.
disbelieving someone is innocent is no different than believing someone is guilty, then by your own statement everything is irrational. this may or may not be true, but it seems like you're arguing a rationalists standpoint so...
Science deals with things we can actually observe which is a good thing.
physics only explains data, some of which is not observable. even with the aid technology our senses are duller than our minds.
so what is a true atheist? i think the apathetic have it. their lack of concern removes a need for god.
don't confuse the agnostic with the apathetic, they very much have a want for god, or at least consider the notion. once the notion is considered its brought into consciousness and a god or anti-god is born.
Your twisting words here. The court dosnt decide if someone is innocent or not, it decides if they are guilty or not.
guilty(not innocent) <------>not guilt(innocent)
Done it/happened <-------> not done it/not happened
Man has laned on mars <---> Man has not landed on Mars
If we said we require proof that someone is innocent that would mean we require proof to prove that something dosnt exist/didnt happen.
That would for example mean that we would have to prove that unicorns didnt exist and if we couldnt manage that(which we couldnt) that would mean they exist.
Everything we could imagine that couldnt be proven untrue would be considered true.
16 years ago
Posts: 250
Quote from The Guy
But this discussion is going no where. Someone like me only values clear and convincing evidence and the bible has absolutely no value to me as an argument.
While for you, you value the bible and the words written in it over any evidence you find.
Our values are complete opposites, and thus our discussion will never get anywhere.
For my previous argument I didn't use the Bible as my main arguing point. The only time i used the Bible is for the prophecies. Im sorry if I came across as someone very stubborn who "value the bible... over any evidence you find" But in truth I don't just denounce any evidence that some think is against the Bible, there are times when i read the Bible and something sounds contradicting or sketchy, then i research or check the original language's definition and such or consult someone with a proper theological degree and in all times has it been explained. I am not like one of those fundamentalists during the early 1900s who couldn't back up any questions brought against them and only refrenced the bible. I understand that since the Bible is part of my faith I certainly cannot use it solely (or in most cases, at all) to prove my faith.
16 years ago
Posts: 51
Quote from Azari02
Okay, I'm truly sorry but I can't properly defend myself since I myself am not educated enough for some questions (I am only in highschool) but I will try my best.
My respect for you has increased
Quote from Azari02
- what do you describe as these simpler life forms? be more specific, and we do not deny micro evolution. Also, you're ignoring the fact that there is no link between any of the so called chain of creatures
The ONLY difference between micro and macro evolution is time scale.
No links? Like Australopithecus? Tiktallik? Google those names to learn more.
Quote from Azari02
- how would that ever imply geocentrism? are you saying that everything that was created prior to the fourth day (being NO LIFE FORMS) could simply not have existed because of the sun? and give me a reference that people in ancient times (prior to the Ptolemaic period) didnt believe in geocentrism because you OBVIOUSLY imply that
Well how could plants survive without sunlight? 😀
Are you assuming that the Earth just "sat there" until the sun was created and started orbiting it? Geo centrism was violently defended by Christians though the dark ages because of the Bible (Flat earth was as well). Research Gallileo to learn more.
Quote from Azari02
- The Bible doesn't depict polytheism in the old testament but rather discourages it, especially in the book of Jeremiah. If you are referring to the story of when Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice Isaac this example is faulty because God was testing Abraham's faith and in conclusion God stopped Abraham before Isaac was killed. Bible believers don't believe in polytheism so the Bible won't have polytheism in it, however the Bible does refer to gods in the sense of lesser evil spiritual beings, or if you're talking about the deistic view of the old testament and new testament god which conservative Christians don't believe in .
At many times god refers to himself as We or Us. This is because the word Elohim can be plural. The concept of the trinity was created as a fudge to get past this. Even the Ten Commandments decrees "You shall have no other gods before me". What other gods is he speaking of?
Quote from Azari02
- I dont fully understand what your asking however if you are trying to ask "when did he come into existence" we understand and accept God has always existed. we as creation cannot comprehend the idea of infinity since we ourselves did have a start point, unlike God. what does the origins of yahweh have to do with christianity? its simply a term used and yes it has different meanings in different religions, most notably religions OTHER than conservative christianity. if you're expecting me to say YHWH, i'm not because i'm not part of judaism apparently.
You didn't know that he was part of the Caananite pantheon?
Quote from Azari02
- It is man's fault that we sinned and sin entered the world. All things will come to past to only glorify God more, we understand that Jesus came to redeem us from eternal damnation however God is a just God and will many times execute his judgment. God loves us which is why he sent Jesus your saying that it is God's fault for not stepping in and stopping what we already deserve.
That wasn't really what I asked, my fault really.
Would a loving god order an act of genocide? He did throughout the old testament.
Would a loving god order an act of rape? He did in Numbers Chapter 31
Would a loving god order an act of slavery? He did in both the old and new testaments
Would a loving god allow an act of polygamy? Many of the kings and prophets of Israel had multiple wives.
As for misogyny, the bible is rife with it. Disgusting.
The more biblically aware you are, the closer to atheism you become.
16 years ago
Posts: 1366
Quote from SliceA1A
- Explain how an all loving god can condone genocide, rape, slavery, polygamy, and misogyny.
mind if field this question.
Now I'm not overly religious and neither is my family. But I believe in "higher powers". I can only give you an opinion based on what I've been told and from what little I've read. So, He created us in his own image. It's kind of hard to think if that is so then maybe He's not so perfect after all. He also created the angel's, and hey look, it's Satan. The Devil whatever you want to call him. God is vengeful and jealous, and maybe he figures we don't need his direct intervention anymore, and until we die whatever happens to our fleshy pots is on us. That's not even taking into consideration all the other deciding theological factors. God ain't the only game in town after all.
Sarcasm just doesn't work over the internet.
16 years ago
Posts: 539
oho, 6 pgs in one day
I think that religion isn't very compatible with nowadays world. A little example is that you won't be applied to a job if you do not match the set of co-workers.
Just yesterday I saw this reportage about some drunk guy that lured with an icecream and raped a 9 yo girl. Interesting that locals consider this partly girl's/her mother's fault. Mother was extremely religious and shield her daughter from fancy things, sweets and tv. (I think there was some movie with Kevin Costner about such boy)
I'm not a strong polemicist in unmasking some great myths but I found hilarious a piece of text in Bible saying always to carry a shovel to bury your excrements so that God wouldn't see it. (When I told about that my friend, a granddaughter of a Jehovah's Witness, she said she did bury her dog's poo when was little)
Anyway, my point is that almost all religions of the civilized world go against the laws of nature.
16 years ago
Posts: 1310
You people are arguing a little too much about this...
Atheism is the belief that there is no god, as such because there is no evidence to prove ANY religion is right, atheism could be right, but since there is no conclusive evidence that there is no god, that also means atheism could be wrong, in the end you believe whatever suits yourself.
Atheism does have its teachings, it teaches people that there is no god, even thought there is no true evidence to support this claim...
So there are Wars, Murders, pain... IE a lot of bad things happen, but that doesn't mean God doesn't exist, for all we know all the bad things in this world happen because God wants them to happen; with no real reason other than his amusement, I will be honest, If I could live forever and had the powers god supposedly has, then I would probably end creating the universe to ease my boredom, i would create life and give it free will and every time things would get boring, I would send a catastrophe just to see their reaction... because there is a rule that has always remained constant: Power corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, is just a matter of time, and for a being with eternal life, time never runs out, and as such, corruption never stops.
God is supposed to be above all this, but all the religious text show that god can get angry, that his patience runs out, that he will punish anyone that does evil deeds... this is obvious proof that God, as seen in most religions, can be arrogant and surely could also be corrupted by his own power...
But, who cares if God wants us to struggle and suffer, if he wants to be amused, then we can do nothing more than give it to him, if god exist then we should find it and kick its arse for being such a dick, and if god doesn't exist, then we should focus all our power in becoming gods of our own destiny and more...
ZZzzzZZzzzZZzz
16 years ago
Posts: 640
Frankly, although I am an atheist I soo badly want so called God to exists.
Well, at least if he exists I can.. I mean at least can try to kill him if I get the chance 😀
On the other hand :
I am still alive and my existence hasn't been erased and I can't see any agents after me, so there goes my wish >.>
16 years ago
Posts: 26
Quote from Chaoswind
Atheism is the belief that there is no god, as such because there is no evidence to prove ANY religion is right, atheism could be right, but since there is no conclusive evidence that there is no god, that also means atheism could be wrong, in the end you believe whatever suits yourself.
Atheism does have its teachings, it teaches people that there is no god, even thought there is no true evidence to support this claim...
I would really like to know how you classify the rational standpoint not believing in something which there is no evidence for. But accepting it as true if some actual evidence appears. to back it up
I dont believe in a god or lets say unicorns since i have yet to see evidence for the existence for one or the other. I dont believe in either but i dont go around saying i know there is no god or unicorns for that matter since there is no way i can say that for sure. I have been calling this standpoint agnostic atheism do you have a other word for it?.
Afaik most atheists say there is no evidence for a god, therefore there is no reason to believe in one. This however is not the same as saying/teaching there is no god.
16 years ago
Posts: 458
We should all just stop arguing this out cause its getting more and more intense. Instead how about for now we accept that Lain is God or I suppose Goddess
16 years ago
Posts: 1762
Quote from ExzyruSxxx
We should all just stop arguing this out cause its getting more and more intense. Instead how about for now we accept that Lain is God or I suppose Goddess
Ummm, no. This is the only post that I really have a problem with and it's because you're asking us to take on your view.
There is no right or wrong answer, each person is entitled to their own views/beliefs and even if they do not coincide with our own, we should at least have enough decency toward our fellow humans to respect their choices. Unfortunately, this is not the way of the world and intolerance is abundant.
Personally, I don't have a problem with anything anyone believes in, as long as they don't try to force their views on me.
Member16 years ago
Posts: 125
""I am an atheist, but not a fanatic. I don't try to persuade other people. I respect religion, and the people that follow it.""
This is a very interesting discussion..
I would just like to say mostly I agree with the above statement. However, I differ with the above in that I dont respect religious fanatics who refuse to face scientific facts in favor of the Bible or what they believe.. etc.. my example climate change
I also find those people who quote Bible verses and say that it is fact and then they overlook things which would clearly be not accepted in present times, very hypocritical..
And when Christian moral values are pushed on me.. ie no gay marriage.. But I guess that is more politics than religion..
16 years ago
Posts: 1366
Quote from ExzyruSxxx
We should all just stop arguing this out cause its getting more and more intense. Instead how about for now we accept that Lain is God or I suppose Goddess
lain's only domain is the internet. For now atleast.
Sarcasm just doesn't work over the internet.
