First of all .. i don't think that Allah gave us the Qu'ran only ..

Your hole life is a gift from Allah ..

and if he wants to.. he could take it away from you in an eye blink

and as an answer for what you said ..

there was no logic in God making different religions to worship him

The Torah and The Injeel were for privet peopl .. but the Qu'ran is for all the people ..

Islam copy all the religions .. and if you really read The Holy Qu'ran .. You would Know that all the Messengers -peace be upon them' were muslims

From Adam To Muhammad -peace be upon them all- ..

and that's all what i need to say ..

and your questions are meaningless ..

i told you .. if you read Qu'ran .. you will know what i'm talking about .

Jews, Christians, and Muslims should just get together and find a consensus in this whole debate. All three derived from one source, so maybe if all three get together, we'll find that one view that will help us to stop saying "We're the right religion."

Then, it'll just come down to the debate between theists and atheists.

i believe that god exists, but i don't believe in the religon of christianity.

BB

Quote from Yasha

First of all .. i don't think that Allah gave us the Qu'ran only ..

Your hole life is a gift from Allah ..

and if he wants to.. he could take it away from you in an eye blink

and as an answer for what you said ..

there was no logic in God making different religions to worship him

The Torah and The Injeel were for privet peopl .. but the Qu'ran is for all the people ..

Islam copy all the religions .. and if you really read The Holy Qu'ran .. You would Know that all the Messengers -peace be upon them' were muslims

From Adam To Muhammad -peace be upon them all- ..

and that's all what i need to say ..

and your questions are meaningless ..

i told you .. if you read Qu'ran .. you will know what i'm talking about .

Well like I said, I'm not satisfied with someone saying it's in the Qu'ran so it must be true. If you are, then Al humduallah. But for me I needed to know if the Qu'ran was telling the truth, and that meant putting the claims of the Qu'ran to the test. The claim of corruption of the Injeel and Torah were one of things I needed to find out about. I think by my posts you can infer what I discovered about this claim.

[Edit]

Quote from SeJun

Jews, Christians, and Muslims should just get together and find a consensus in this whole debate. All three derived from one source, so maybe if all three get together, we'll find that one view that will help us to stop saying "We're the right religion."

Then, it'll just come down to the debate between theists and atheists.

I have to agree with you there, and i would guess the whole convention would come down to one question: Who is Jesus Christ?

While I'm not religious, I did find this appealing:

In Thomas v.3, Jesus says,

...the Kingdom of God is within you...

Thomas v. 77 where Jesus said,

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everywhere. From me all came forth, and to me all return.  
Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there,   

Coming from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas

As far as I know, Vatican doesn't recognize this as legitimate.

In the end what matters is oneness with nature.

Quote from Inc

While I'm not religious, I did find this appealing:

In Thomas v.3, Jesus says,

...the Kingdom of God is within you...

Thomas v. 77 where Jesus said,

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everywhere. From me all came forth, and to me all return.  
Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there,   

Coming from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas

As far as I know, Vatican doesn't recognize this as legitimate.

In the end what matters is oneness with nature.

Well, duhh, it's Gnosticism.

[color=green]Life, what would it be without so much wrongs and rights?
[/color]

[color=red]Star Trek XI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiR-NETDr0[/color]

Quote from ares6

Quote from Inc

While I'm not religious, I did find this appealing:

In Thomas v.3, Jesus says,

...the Kingdom of God is within you...

Thomas v. 77 where Jesus said,

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everywhere. From me all came forth, and to me all return.  
Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there,   

Coming from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas

As far as I know, Vatican doesn't recognize this as legitimate.

In the end what matters is oneness with nature.

Well, duhh, it's Gnosticism.

Your point being what exactly?

Quote from Inc

Quote from ares6

Quote from Inc

While I'm not religious, I did find this appealing:

[quote]In Thomas v.3, Jesus says,

...the Kingdom of God is within you...

Thomas v. 77 where Jesus said,

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everywhere. From me all came forth, and to me all return.  
Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there,   

Coming from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas

As far as I know, Vatican doesn't recognize this as legitimate.

In the end what matters is oneness with nature.

Well, duhh, it's Gnosticism.

Your point being what exactly?[/quote]
Gnosticism isn't exactly popular with the Vatican.......you knew that, right?

[color=green]Life, what would it be without so much wrongs and rights?
[/color]

[color=red]Star Trek XI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiR-NETDr0[/color]

Yeah I don't think the Gospel of Thomas is in the Bible, which means it wasn't approved of by the early church. I do agree however that you can see God in nature, but not based on this particular Gospel.

[Edit]

Quote from Odai

I'm glad I'm agnostic.

Watching people attempt to either prove or disprove the existence of an all seeing, omnipotent god - something that can't be done - looks both painful and redundant in my eyes.

It's not a matter of proving or disproving. God is pretty similar to gravity in the sense hes going to keep working whether you believe in it or not. Hes working constantly but people don't understand what he does.

But ya still gotta prove it. It's like saying, "This disease is contagious. You can become infected by being close to a guy with it."

It's something that happens... but there are many explanations of it.

"I think he's sick because there are evil spirits that attack the person if they're too near."

"Right right! It's the devil's work!"

"I think it's because of the negative karma that this guy emits when he's sick, and therefore disrupts your karma, therefore, you get sick."

"Hey, lookit this, little tiny organisms swimming around in his spit. Maybe these... oh, I'll name them... bacteria... are the cause of the disease?"

"These bacteria are the devil!"

"Wait a sec, those bacteria don't harm others when filtered out... maybe there's something smaller that we can't see that's the disease? I'll name this thing a virus."

"It's not a matter of what it is exactly! It happens... and so can't you see it's the work of the devil!? Doesn't need proving. Heal through prayers."

"...I found it... using x-ray crystallography."

"Told ya it was the devil."

😛 Hahah... although I might've been a little harsh with the example, Zubz... you see my point? You can't just say, "It's not a matter of proving or disproving." because... it's all about proving through evidence. :]

Edit:

Ah. Here we go. The Wikipedia definition of gravitation and its early history. :] Enjoy.

According to Kanada, founder of the Vaisheshika school, "Weight causes falling; it is imperceptible and known by inference."

o___o;;; This sounds somewhat like, "You don't need to prove it cuz it's obvious."

In the 4th century BC, the Greek philosopher Aristotle... hypothesized that everything tried to move towards its proper place in the crystalline spheres of the heavens, and that physical bodies fell toward the center of the Earth in proportion to their weight.

Okay... seems reasonable, except for the crystalline spheres.

In the 1000s, the Iraqi scientist Ibn al-Haytham (Alhacen), in the Mizan al-Hikmah, discussed the theory of attraction between masses, and it seems that he was aware of the magnitude of acceleration due to gravity.

Nice. Magnitude of acceleration starts to point towards modern day physics.

In 1121, Al-Khazini, in The Book of the Balance of Wisdom, differentiated between force, mass, and weight,[8] and discovered that gravity varies with the distance from the centre of the Earth.

Ah. Nice discovery!

Galileo showed that gravitation accelerates all objects at the same rate. This was a major departure from Aristotle's belief that heavier objects are accelerated faster.

Good. Disproving quite a bit of what Aristotle thought.

In 1687, English mathematician Sir Isaac Newton published Principia, which hypothesizes the inverse-square law of universal gravitation.

And there we have it. Modern day physics.

Now, what if we were to have believed in the very first statement? No, wait, the 2nd statement? No, wait, maybe 3rd? Oh wow. Crystalline spheres. I mean, that would've done wonders for modern-day physics wouldn't it have?

I think you get my point. No matter. It's all about proving and disproving. If you don't, you get misconceptions about EVERYTHING. And then, that's when fantasy trumphs logic. It isn't a good thing. People will still be persecuted today for saying that the Sun is at the center of the solar system.

Yes, gravity will still work whether we believe in it or not, but people will persecute you for believing in the truth behind gravity, right?

And that's why, ladies and gentlemen, we keep seeking the truth.

-Max

Quote from DeLtA_IjK

"Told ya it was the devil."

...and

"Told ya there's a China teapot revolving around the Sun, damm it !" xD

sorry...it can't be helped but reminds me of the Russell's analogy again 😀

"As long as we're seeing the same kind of musical vision, yeah, sure. But sometimes when things get hard, you balance out the pros and cons and say, am I being a wimp if I stay or am I being a wimp if I leave?" - D'arcy Wretzky

Thank you Bertrand Russell.

I prefer to be agnostic of the teapot. I think that is reasonable.

Life is tough......but it's tougher if you're stupid.
[img]http://img.userbars.pl/69/13603.gif[/img]

Quote from Zubz313

It's not a matter of proving or disproving. God is pretty similar to gravity in the sense hes going to keep working whether you believe in it or not. Hes working constantly but people don't understand what he does.

As usual delta you bring up some great points. I have absolutely no argument against the scientific method. But believe it or not, I think your saying pretty much what I'm saying. In your examples, no one set out with the intention of discovering the virus, so much as they were trying to figure out what was making the person sick. The virus was discovered or as you said proven as a result of trying to understand the sickness. In your example of gravity, no one set out to prove gravity, but instead saw a phenomenon and went about trying to understand it via experimentation and testing.

I especially enjoyed your initial statements in your examples, where people made assumptions about the cause without really understanding phenomenon. How many times have you seen, especially in this thread of people saying very similar things about God. They make an assumption about God, and hold on to it as the "truth." Where is the same attempt to understand that was admired in your examples I wonder? My point is that God is a reality, but people don't understand what he does, or what he is so that they can see him. I bet you're thinking at least with Gravity, when I drop something I can see it, but with God what can I look at to see he is there? Well there are actually a lot of things 😀 , but I think the one that will probably mean the most to you and most people is how he interacts with you personally. In our PM's I think I kind of alluded to that.

Err I with the tea pot people, much more fun. 😛

As for God and the big D both went out and got pissed that’s why we are here today. The world An ancient delusion brought on by the lack of mind-bending substances. ERRRR Or was it some giant Indian person dreaming of us. When He wakes up we all go, bye bye. 😕

love and peace