@tartufo I'm not much of a pessimist. I'm actually more optimistic than I sound. I'm not trying to say that everyone is like that (I probably shouldn't have said society/people), I am just grouping together the like minded people of the discussed type and analyzing their thoughts. Don't think of it as a view of the world, think of it more as a possibility for one aspect of like minded individuals. As for mangakas making these stories for money I was wrong to say they have to, but the thing is, they can. But what I said after holds true: why is there still all this junk if no one is buying?

I am confused, are you asking why the authors thought that they had to water down the women in order to make the story romantic? e.g. (smart and single turns into dumb and in a relationship) Well... I don't know. To tell the truth I don't read much shoujo mangas (I entered into this discussion because I never thought of this and because it interested me). But if I were a mangaka and did something like this it would be because: I don't see a difference between men and women except for one thing. If I were to see a woman doing something cool (or being smart, strong, etc.) I wouldn't see a woman doing something cool, I just see something cool being done. The thing is, men (in my story) would have more opportunity to seem better because the man HAS to do something or else he would seem less of a character (don't know how to put it in better words). The girl wouldn't have to do anything, for me to maintain my opinion about her (again probably bad word choice). But then again, this is coming from a guy who doesn't read any shoujo.

There's been too many posts with just pure discussions. I'm truly sorry, but from my post onwards; posts /without/ recs will be DELETED.

(Posts with discussions /and/ recs however, are approved~)

Hmm, excuse me for saying this but, cant the couple be equal? After all, we're all just human. Why does it have to be that one gender is better than the other? After all, i think everyone is just trying to turn this into a competition. Since girls are "expected" to be ditzy and boys are "expected" to be stronger (in whatever sense you may interpret) everyones started thinking its normal.

Hey, i may not be the sportiest or most athletic person out there, but my grades and smarts are what equals me to everyone else. I cant really understand by what you mean as "stronger". Hey, some people are stronger in some subjects than others so i dont really see anyone as stronger than anyone else, everyone has a talent. And although im ashamed to admit it, ive read quite a few shoujo cliches myself and liked them. In most of them though, you can find something in the protagonists actions that make them likable (likable enough that you'll finish the story )

Some mangas that would into your category would be:

Skip Beat!!: she may be a little "ditzy" or "innocent" but her acting talent is what makes her smart, not only that but her unusual personality separates her from the usual cliche shoujo heroine.

Vanilla Ice: The girl in this one is actually physically stronger than her love interest (although ive only read around ten chapters, im very sure in who her love interest is)

He's Dedicated to Roses: Although she doesnt mean to, the main character actually makes her love interest look somewhat stupid, considering she has him fooled in who she really is.

and Reimei no Arcana: The protagonist is very strong considering her situation and i found her to be better than most shoujo heroines.

Stroke Material: smarter, calmer
Akuma to Love Song: better looking, smarter, calmer, cooler
Suki-tte Ii na yo: calmer, cooler
Cat Street: the girl is calmer than one guy but not the other, she's super talented as well
Miss Rain: calmer, better-looking
Silent Eye: she's more popular than her bf
The Rose of Versailles: old shoujo but the girl is stronger, calmer, better-looking, higher status, etc than the guy
Four Daughters of Armian: one of the daughters is really cold, smart, strong (not physical), really good-looking
Diva: calmer, more talented

Last edited by cliff at 11:36 am, Jul 17 2010

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Help! I'm looking for... manga with dangerous guys http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=39874&pa ge=1#post594033

Angel Diary

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try warau kanoko sama (prequel of koi dano ai dano)
the female lead is not popular but, she's so smart, mature, and realistic that make the male lead annoyed ('cause he can't get her heart).
the story is fun and refreshing.

i can't tell many detail about the story, but u can see the comment bellow that manga. i highly recommended this manga.

Last Game He may be perfect on the outside, but he is an absolute sappy, spazzy idiot when it comes to her. She is cool and collected and perfect.
warau kanoko sama She's a bit nerdy, but cold and calculating and doesn't care what others think. He is obsessed with her.
Koi dano Ai dano Sequel to the one above, even better than the first!
Gokuraku Seishun Hockey Bu She's lazy and doesn't care about others, while he is obsessed with her to crazy levels and is an idiot.


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As they played the game...I waited for someone to call "onigiri." But no one called. I was very little then. I had almost forgotten about that. [...] But they knew...there would never be room for an onigiri...in a fruits basket.
-Tohru Honda, Fruits Basket

Girl the Wild's

I don't really know if this work, but would Tokyo Crazy Paradise be one that you are looking for? She doesn't really depend on the guy and is a really good fighter.

I do so agree that this stereotype is ANNOYING. Especially when I meet people even in real life assuming that people who do not possess Y chromosomes are never as good as the top few who do possess Y chromosomes in the field. It's so hard to find anything at all that has an intelligent female. Argh!

Having said that, how about penguin revolution and the scarlet chair?

I like your mentioning the classic shojo manga heroines being more independent and strong. Older shojos often dealt with more complex and mature ideas/themes in addition to romance.

I'd recommend Kisshou Tennyo, a very interesting work by the author of Banana Fish. It deals with how men and women wield power in different ways. It's very much an exploration of gender relations under the guise of a psychological thriller. The heroine is definitely smarter and more cunning their the men that chases after her and her family fortune as she foils their efforts to harm her every time.

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Reviving an old thread ^^

Maybe we have to stray outside the barriers of shojo/josei manga to find our inspiring/ stronger heroines.
Aria, depending on your viewpoint, could be empowering/ objectifing women (but only if you REALLY think about the status of gondoliers in society.) Overall, its a great manga that has strong characters.
Otoyomegatari she is older and tremendously more mature, although the male lead has his moments ^^. This is a manga with strong, well-rounded characters in a seemingly not-equal environment (again depending on your view).


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Oresama Teacher - the main character Mafuyu is stronger than about everyone since she used to be the banchou of her old school. The only one stronger than her is her odd homeroom teacher (also childhood friend in a way). He was the one that taught her how to fight in the first place. Mafuyu is really strong and that is probably her only strong point. Other than that she isn't really smart at all.

Saver - Ley/Lena who is the main character is really smart and strong. I'm not really sure if anyone ever beat her but it's not like she ever fought really strong people. Anyway she is more calmer and is really stoic compared to the other characters.

Hana no Kishi - the main character is stronger than all the other characters in a way and beat them all. Even the guy that she ends up with is weaker than her in strength

Well overall I only know about manga where the female main character is stronger than the male(s).

Kaichou wa maid-sama. . . Im sure you read it already. . . The girl. . I guess is better then alot of people. . But is . . well equal? I guess to the male lead