Quote from Kittycat101

Quote from ManicFreak

Quote from Kittycat101

Well maybe because the last time people tried to rebel against communism in china they got massacred and run over with tanks. China rules their people by instilling fear not respect. and suppresses human rights activists from inspiring people try another anti-communism rally.the tiananmen square massacre comes to mind.

Western sensational journalism at its best.
Can you really tell me how much of the Chinese population are human rights activists? If most are okay of it (I know some of them personally when I visited there) and the few don't like how the CCP rule, they are free to leave to anywhere that accept them. And anyway, the last time I check for the first basic principle of democracy, it's majority rule.

And what kinds of rights do they really take away from? Bing about their gov't? The last time I b about my gov't, my local representative did jackshit. People should focus on their own country's problem first, before nosing into other's business. 😮

Are you trying to say that it didnt happen? lol. do you realize WHY google was hacked? google itself claimed that whoever hacked into their system was targeting HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS EMAIL ACCOUNTS in CHINA. hmmm i wonder who that could be...
on a side note. my dad works in china, and in the winters heating isnt allowed. my dads company is a pretty big business and they dont have the power to heat their building. nor do they have a/c in the summer.
and ever since google pulled out of china the internet doesn't work at all most days there. and if it does most EVERYTHING is blocked.
and do you even realize how much poverty is in china?
uea your right i guess.at leats your ALLOWED to complain. how about you live in china and try to complain. Americans are spoiled

Did I say it didn't happen? Please, don't put crap in my post. Not fun arguing a fallacy.
And you actually feel you can believe something a corporation said? Hmm... And the hacking itself is likely not targeting human rights activists email account, but more the for industrial secrets. And Google itself did not explicitly say it's China. If they already burn their bridge with China, why it won't condemn them publicly? You answer me. 😕

For your side note, not all place are fully developed, but the developing pace certainly much faster than your typical representative gov't. Might I ask where your dad is working?

As for internet not working when Google left, not true at all. Sites doesn't work because the Great Firewall of China block search results from HK Google that would already be filtered out when China Google existed. If you don't like getting plenty of 404 sites, then switch to a Chinese-law abiding search engine like Bing or Yahoo.

And I do live in US. It's definitely great. I just hope my country focuses more on domestic issues.

On the issue of my right to complain, my complaining doesn't get me anywhere. So please tell me, what is the use of my complaining if it doesn't change a thing? The Iraq War, Big Gov't and increase US debt, the Patriot Act, ignoring the separation of church and state, banks' and car manufacturers' bailout, etc... These things I'm totally against, but hey, I might as well not complain at all since my complaining didn't prevent any of these things from happening. People in a democracy... wait, a federal republic, think they might get a say in their gov't, but they are all along for the ride, especially with the two-party system. Politicians themselves concern more for their own special interest and the lobbyists than a normal citizen like me. 😢

On your last point, I do realize China's rural areas have it pretty bad, but please... compare to places like India, Vietnam, etc, they have it better than them. I visited some of the villages near the Fujian area and they are already modernizing. Not to mention, all the wealthy western countries can't eradicate poverty either. Poverty will exist no matter what. Utopias don't exist.

Quote from fr33noob

Quote from ManicFreak

Quote from fr33noob

[quote=wil2312]umm i know this has only a bare relevance to the topic but i thought it was the japanese that hunted the whales in the name of science and not chinese

yes i already said about that and how it was wrong due to third party, but the rest is right.
My greatest apologies. 🤣

SOOOO what every one has now agreed on is that!
Since china has being doing so well up till now they would rather not question or probe that area since it is functional in china.

Is that not a show of fear for the unknown? Meaning they could become passive about other things?

No, it's just you're being a simpleton and not understanding the big picture here. Do you prefer the Chinese people to live in mass poverty with vast area of undeveloped land? That's India. It's better to have a single party that can get things done FAST, economically in this case. In addition, the Chinese culture favored collectivism over individualism, which will greatly explain why most will give up some rights so their nation can move forward FAST... something most westerners also don't understand... unless they like to destabilize China.

Probably too hard for you to understand.
Let me simplify this, individually, I would think people would prefer being alive than having freedom. Tell me what you can do if you have freedom but will die of hunger soon.

Given that you hate China so much as to make up stuffs about the Chinese killing whales (that's the Japanese, and they also prey on the dolphins too: search youtube).

well your under the asumption that there could not possably be another goverment with beter ideals...who's the simpleton? I am looking at the ideal situation but you are too scared to look at that.
Remember this is about changing the net for more exposure-
That doesn't shawn down poverty sorry to say.[/quote]
Better ideals? Idealism doesn't work, or a Communist state would be the best gov't out of all the possibilities. No one is scare, but some are more capable than other from separating fantasy from reality. You're in the category of the latter, and that's why you're a simpleton.

...You're worry more about change for the internet than human survival and prosperity...? Wow. 😔

LOL 🤣

Please? A fantasy to have a net with a little more freedom 😕
Fear is controling them from not even wanting to try touch the subject because they are cozy, Yes the country is improving but by god it is not a ferry tail to ignite democracy without violance.

Simpletons are cozy in their coners not seeking advancement, which part of me sugesting a free internet is so idealisticly fairytail like? It is a smaller matter but being passive is what brings apon corruption.

[img]http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/fr33noob/on3winged9.jpg[/img]
I believe in letting people do as they wish, as do I myself. Sometimes, of course, what I wish to do is kill them and they do not wish to die. This gives life interest.
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/26.jpg[/img]

Quote from fr33noob

My question here is:

WHY are these people living under dictatorship?** WHY** are they not fighting for democracy?
Are they contempt with living in a dictatorship? Are they ok with someone telling them how their life will roll down the line?
Just WHY?

The reason why i have decided now to bring this up is because google has now decided to opt out of chinas net? What is their net> games and networking?, they have less then half the acces we have to the net because of dictatorship

I read an article saying the youth dont know anything else. Everyone who has been against it has been taken out so its not like they no anything different.

It's fine. They are slowly gaining more independence and from the way history works, the human need for individuality will always triumph.

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Quote from Kitteh_13

I read an article saying the youth dont know anything else. Everyone who has been against it has been taken out so its not like they no anything different.

Geez... Well this thread is a lost cause.

1. The thread starter refuse to learn or understand despite admitting wrongful facts from third party sources (pro tip: if one fact from a source is wrong, maybe the other is too?).
2. Now and then some ignorant foxnews minion like the above has to chip in too.

So yeah, this thread is not going anywhere, the above points will just keep repeating ad infinitum.

Quote from RilleL

Quote from Kitteh_13

I read an article saying the youth dont know anything else. Everyone who has been against it has been taken out so its not like they no anything different.

Geez... Well this thread is a lost cause.

1. The thread starter refuse to learn or understand despite admitting wrongful facts from third party sources (pro tip: if one fact from a source is wrong, maybe the other is too?).
2. Now and then some ignorant foxnews minion like the above has to chip in too.

So yeah, this thread is not going anywhere, the above points will just keep repeating ad infinitum.

Lost cause? This is a free discussion on the opinions that people have about this cause. And like a thread ages ago suggests. You can't argue an opinion. You can only disagree with it. 🙂

If you disagree with it you have 2 options:

A. Leave this thread and don't look at it again because no one cares what you have to say.
B. Take part in this discussion and state your opinion as to why you disagree with certain points.

Bare in mind. THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. This is a sheer opinion stating between people who take part in this concern of the lack of political freedom in China.

Thank you. Have a nice day.

REMEMBER. Ignorance causes corruption.

[img]http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6069/angelh3artsignature.jpg[/img]
THE ONLY THING I FAIL AT IS FAILING

I only read the first post and honestly it's not as bad as you think. I have been to China many many times as i have relatives their and they DO have google, not sure about the others but I know for a fact they have a their own forms of facebook and other resources.

Actually people their are pretty content and it doesn't mean anything just because they don't follow your percieved form of a great country. And seriously? There's no perfect country, especially America( There's a reason half the world hates them) even though i live there 😉

Fr33noob. I agree with your concerns. It's great that people like you have even thought about this situation because not many in the world actually care.

I will start by setting an example of my own experience.

19 years ago, in a small eastern european country called Lithuania, there was dictatorship and communism active.
No one complained, no one saw it as a bad thing (since they weren't introduced to a right of choice).
No one in the whole country were brave enough to uncover the truth behind why Lithuania only existed as a part of Russian communist empire, suppressed under a law of so called "equality", not until ONE person, who was a Lithuanian news reporter showed her concerns towards the countrys well being. She locked herself in a television tower in southern part of the capital and asked people (mere civilians) to come help her support this rebelious act to prevent the suppression of dictatorship and free the country to implement democracy. She broadcasted the news on all channels until the outer reaches of europe (independent of Russian communist empire), saw it and decided to announce Lithuania as an independent society, Bare in mind that Lithuania as a name of the country didn't even exist whilst in the Russian communist empire.

Civilian people took part in this, led by a single person who they believed would bring them a better future since the country barely made it half way to second world country with communism active. Now, they are actively more than half way to the first world. WHY? Because it is led by an independent society that can make choices THEMSELVES.

WHY didn't people just ignore the journalist and say "well communism has helped us to reach second world". BECAUSE they wanted to be free and independent. BECAUSE they were introduced to what FREEDOM really is. And don't start telling me all this bullshit how Chinese people are happy that the communism is leading them somewhere. THEY do not have a right of choice!. They have no freedom of speech even. Like freenoob mentioned, the www. (which should stand for WORLD WIDE WEB) is fucking blocked! (google?o_O)

Reason why chinese people aren't showing the concern is mainly because they are suppressed under a fear of governments corruption and fear of death, whereas a sacrifice of a few would bring the country the freedom it really deserves. (Think about it there is no elections! Who even asks these people IF THEY WANT or NOT to be free from communism?) NO ONE!. this is because they have NO CHOICE. That is what fr33noob was trying to say.

Before you post a reply to this thread. Remember! The lack of concern for others just shows what a petty and ignorant bastard you really are. Just because you live in a country which doesn't have communism and YOU KNOW what it's like to have a choice doesn't mean you shouldn't even show a concern for these people that assemble 1/7th of the worldwide community!! China contains over one billion people! That is a lot. But who is there to speak for them? Who is there to introduce them to a chance of HAVING A CHOICE! It doesn't matter what choice it is. In the end they might even accept communism instead of democracy. But it's not for you, me or most of all, NOT for the government to decide. Don't they deserve a freedom of speech and a right to know?

Just think about that.

[img]http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6069/angelh3artsignature.jpg[/img]
THE ONLY THING I FAIL AT IS FAILING

Democracy = freedom & happiness? I agree there's a lot wrong with China, but where are you from yourself? United States? Do you think in your own country there's a system that allows people freedom and happiness (not a rhetorical question)? I admit that I didn't really bother reading anything in this thread, but I'll do that later, now I'm too tired (got fever too).

Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

And thank all the people arguing for both sides. I especially thank for the people patiently trying to tell the some of our less accepting members the truth of the matter.[The truth: Life ain't a Hollywood movie, nor is it some god damn news report based on some politically biased commentator]

As a final note, people should really just look at themselves when they are talking about other people's faults. Each country have its own system of law and degrees of freedom. China actually enjoys TRUE freedom from any religious coercion. America is mainly Christianity and almost ALL our politicians are Christians. So in effect, all decisions made will be in favor of Christianity one way or the other versus other religions. Did you know that in China, no on cares if you are religious or not? In fact, most people in China are religious. Religion is more tolerated in China than a lot other places, including the US.[Remember what happened to people that looked Arabic after the twin tower event?]

Gay book discussion thread

Quote from you_no_see_me_

this is not about cannibalism...please get back on topic

Quote from Toto

I think it is exactly the topic. I see nothing wrong.

I don't really know what it is like to live under communism, so for that bit I'm neutral. I have never gone to China, and it is true that Western media is generally biased against China. However, the Chinese people may want to live this way or not. In this case I am Switzerland.

Quote from BoxBox

As a final note, people should really just look at themselves when they are talking about other people's faults. Each country have its own system of law and degrees of freedom. China actually enjoys TRUE freedom from any religious coercion. America is mainly Christianity and almost ALL our politicians are Christians. So in effect, all decisions made will be in favor of Christianity one way or the other versus other religions. Did you know that in China, no on cares if you are religious or not? In fact, most people in China are religious. Religion is more tolerated in China than a lot other places, including the US.[Remember what happened to people that looked Arabic after the twin tower event?]

People in China could very well be religious, but coming from a Catholic perspective, a Catholic who wishes to keep faith with the Pope must do so underground because it is illegal. China created the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association in 1957 which is run by the government and disregards the supremacy of the pope and therefor not recognized by the church (if you are not a Catholic that is probably not a big deal to you and perhaps a good thing, but to an orthodox Roman Catholic it is a big deal).

My point is that you say "Religion is more tolerated in China than a lot other places, including the US." Perhaps it is true that more religions are widely accepted by China, but don't make China look like everyone is free to practice their religion. In the US there are some crazy right wing Christian people (Catholics included) who act horribly towards people of other religion which isn't right, but people are allowed to have free speech (Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh to name a few). I think that all religions should be allowed to live in harmony and worship whoever the heck they want to worship, and I think that the West and China need work in this department.

Quote from aries_girl

My point is that you say "Religion is more tolerated in China than a lot other places, including the US." Perhaps it is true that more religions are widely accepted by China, but don't make China look like everyone is free to practice their religion.

Let me tell you something. There's a difference between religion and a sect/cult. Due to historical reasons (I won't go into detail, just remember that this is importaint on how China deals with problems), China is very sensitive to radical cults. The prime example is Falun Gong, which is bat shit insane and basically the chinese version of scientology.

They're also very sensitive to mixing political and religious power, something I fully endorse. Religion and politics should be kept seperate and as far away from each other as possible. The prime example here would be dalai lama. That old wolf-in-sheep's-clothing tyrant is perhaps a religious person, but why he's so despised in China is because he demands outrageous amount of political and territorial power too, which he never had the right to in the first place.

You don't see the pope rule Italy from his golden throne in Vatican do you?

So what does this all mean? Well, if you avoid the 2 above completely valid points when dealing with your religion, then yes, you're free to have any religion you want in China. Most people really don't give a shit what you believe in. In fact, I believe more people believe in Confucius and other philosophers with moral and practical guidelines on how you should live, other than believe in an almight divine being.

You know, I would've thought that the whole Iraq thing would've at least made people think about the whole "democracy is good for everyone and all countries should adopt it!!11!!!".

Uh, no.

Very simple comparison that some members have made in the thread, but from a more economical standpoint - India compared to China.

It's actually a very good comparison on a lot of levels - both have a rich history independent from foreigners, which then were invaded by foreigners, only to eventually become completely independent. Similar population sizes (arguably), somewhat similar geographical divisions of area. Vastly different governments (communistic versus socialistic democratic). Anyone can tell that at the moment China does far, far better than India on practically every level.

Democracy isn't good for everyone, and especially, especially not for third or second world countries (there are some people that still argue that China is third and not second) with incredible population.

Democracy is one of the slowest moving forms of government in the world. Just look at the United States - it takes forever for anything to get done, barring national disaster. It would be nigh-impossible to fit this type of government to manage more than 1.3 billion people efficiently. The efficient part is incredibly important - look at India, for example. Their economical growth may be incredibly good, especially in the last decade. But as a whole, the vast majority of their people have been suffering on a scale similar to that of the people in Africa. People die of starvation, dysentery, malnutrition regularly.

That's not to say democracy is a bad thing, but surely, at this point in time, it simply won't work. Maybe in a hundred years, when China as a whole has become much more advanced in terms of standard of living, education, and development it would become plausible. But until then, I will settle for the lesser of the two evils - survival of the vast majority of people over having human rights.

Quote from RilleL

Quote from Kitteh_13

I read an article saying the youth dont know anything else. Everyone who has been against it has been taken out so its not like they no anything different.

Geez... Well this thread is a lost cause.

1. The thread starter refuse to learn or understand despite admitting wrongful facts from third party sources (pro tip: if one fact from a source is wrong, maybe the other is too?).
2. Now and then some ignorant foxnews minion like the above has to chip in too.

So yeah, this thread is not going anywhere, the above points will just keep repeating ad infinitum.

Im Canadian. You know, where our news is news?

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Quote from fr33noob

LOL 🤣

Please? A fantasy to have a net with a little more freedom 😕
Fear is controling them from not even wanting to try touch the subject because they are cozy, Yes the country is improving but by god it is not a ferry tail to ignite democracy without violance.

Simpletons are cozy in their coners not seeking advancement, which part of me sugesting a free internet is so idealisticly fairytail like? It is a smaller matter but being passive is what brings apon corruption.

You should get your priority straight. Which is more important? The well being of the Chinese, or some net freedom. If one really want outside craps (most stuffs on the net are craps), then they already know how to get it. 🙄

And simpletons don't usually utilize their brain to understand the big picture. They keep harping on little non-trivial things like internet freedom. When a country prospers, the shackles will eventually become looser. A country will always favor gradual change to ensure continual stability.

Anyway... wherever you live, I suggest you keep an eye on on the new ACTA Internet Provisions. 😮

Quote from Kitteh_13

Quote from fr33noob

My question here is:

WHY are these people living under dictatorship?** WHY** are they not fighting for democracy?
Are they contempt with living in a dictatorship? Are they ok with someone telling them how their life will roll down the line?
Just WHY?

The reason why i have decided now to bring this up is because google has now decided to opt out of chinas net? What is their net> games and networking?, they have less then half the acces we have to the net because of dictatorship

I read an article saying the youth dont know anything else. Everyone who has been against it has been taken out so its not like they no anything different.

It's fine. They are slowly gaining more independence and from the way history works, the human need for individuality will always triumph.

Youths anywhere don't know anything, period.

While I agree that more freedom will eventually happen, but I do disagree your latter point. Different societies value different things. 4000 years of Chinese culture always value collectivism over individualism. There is study shows using samples from western-influenced Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan, so one can assume that collectivism is even stronger in China. Please, please, don't apply what your status quo on to different groups of people. Not all apples grow out of the same tree.

And one more thing, news is always bias. There is always an agenda. That's why you read multiple sources east and west, north and south, anywhere, and then just do the best to filter out the crap.

Quote from ExzyruSxxx

I believe that if there are no complaints, there is no problem. If there are complaints, but they are left unstated, it would be their own fault their country sucks.

You forgot a third option, that there are complaints, but no one gives a shit about the complaints, and it left the whole country frustrated.

Quote from ManicFreak

Quote from fr33noob

LOL 🤣

Please? A fantasy to have a net with a little more freedom 😕
Fear is controling them from not even wanting to try touch the subject because they are cozy, Yes the country is improving but by god it is not a ferry tail to ignite democracy without violance.

Simpletons are cozy in their coners not seeking advancement, which part of me sugesting a free internet is so idealisticly fairytail like? It is a smaller matter but being passive is what brings apon corruption.

You should get your priority straight. Which is more important? The well being of the Chinese, or some net freedom. If one really want outside craps (most stuffs on the net are craps), then they already know how to get it. 🙄

And simpletons don't usually utilize their brain to understand the big picture. They keep harping on little non-trivial things like internet freedom. When a country prospers, the shackles will eventually become looser. A country will always favor gradual change to ensure continual stability.

Anyway... wherever you live, I suggest you keep an eye on on the new ACTA Internet Provisions. 😮

yes, however that change may never happen if they are passive. LAW IS LAW, what your saying is they should just chillax for now? Look this is "trivial" however I assure you it will not make the country go into poverty for more net freedom. They ARE scared to ask for such "trivial" things? The leader is good but there can be beter...Don't act under an asumption that he has the best ideals, what im saying is not to be afraid is the way forward. Not afraid to look in to "trivial" things like that. If they are afraid of a melt down because of it, is that not fear? China has over 1 billion people in it, are you telling me there could not be beter leaders? Have you ever heard of a chinese election before? no? BUT since its working for now we will ingnore it, comeon...

[img]http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/fr33noob/on3winged9.jpg[/img]
I believe in letting people do as they wish, as do I myself. Sometimes, of course, what I wish to do is kill them and they do not wish to die. This gives life interest.
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