No Net - corrupt china?
15 years ago
Posts: 8
Quote from fr33noob
yes, however that change may never happen if they are passive. LAW IS LAW, what your saying is they should just chillax for now? Look this is "trivial" however I assure you it will not make the country go into poverty for more net freedom. They ARE scared to ask for such "trivial" things? The leader is good but there can be beter...Don't act under an asumption that he has the best ideals, what im saying is not to be afraid is the way forward. Not afraid to look in to "trivial" things like that. If they are afraid of a melt down because of it, is that not fear? China has over 1 billion people in it, are you telling me there could not be beter leaders? Have you ever heard of a chinese election before? no? BUT since its working for now we will ingnore it, comeon...
I don't agree with you about China needing any internet freedom but considering my arguments are pretty much the same as what has been posted on the thread [not having Google, CNN, Youtube isn't really a loss, especially if they have equivalents].
From what I've read, you aren't just concerned with China's lack of internet freedom, but rather, you're concerned with the fact that the freedoms of the Chinese people are limited in general, which is a valid concern. What bothers me is that you are connecting this with their political system which isn't run how you think it is (it's not a dictatorship). More importantly, system isn't run how you, in your 'idealization,' think it should be, i.e., democratically. Ideally, any country would be run with absolute freedom for all, but considering the paradox of freedom, that's not really ideal. [To clarify, absolute freedom would mean that any given person has the freedom to take away another's freedom to live, that is, kill another person].
Anyways, my basic concern is about why you place so much value on democracy or the majority rule. In any given country, the standardized opinion is often not the best one. Moreover, if you just look at the majority (In the US it's still white, middle-class Christians), it's obvious that the majority is not representative of the whole, especially when that majority is only 50.1% of the population.
With that kind of system in place, elections are completely useless. The 49.9% of the population can voice their opinion, but it won't be heard. I still don't understand what sense there is in a system that allows a political scientist the same one vote as some racist hick from Texas.
So do I think China is better off without Google, Youtube, CNN, and DEMOCRACY. YES. And that's why I'm perfectly fine with things as they are in China
15 years ago
Posts: 11
Quote from fr33noob
Quote from ManicFreak
Quote from fr33noob
LOL 🤣
Please? A fantasy to have a net with a little more freedom 😕
Fear is controling them from not even wanting to try touch the subject because they are cozy, Yes the country is improving but by god it is not a ferry tail to ignite democracy without violance.Simpletons are cozy in their coners not seeking advancement, which part of me sugesting a free internet is so idealisticly fairytail like? It is a smaller matter but being passive is what brings apon corruption.
You should get your priority straight. Which is more important? The well being of the Chinese, or some net freedom. If one really want outside craps (most stuffs on the net are craps), then they already know how to get it. 🙄
And simpletons don't usually utilize their brain to understand the big picture. They keep harping on little non-trivial things like internet freedom. When a country prospers, the shackles will eventually become looser. A country will always favor gradual change to ensure continual stability.
Anyway... wherever you live, I suggest you keep an eye on on the new ACTA Internet Provisions. 😮
yes, however that change may never happen if they are passive. LAW IS LAW, what your saying is they should just chillax for now? Look this is "trivial" however I assure you it will not make the country go into poverty for more net freedom. They ARE scared to ask for such "trivial" things? The leader is good but there can be beter...Don't act under an asumption that he has the best ideals, what im saying is not to be afraid is the way forward. Not afraid to look in to "trivial" things like that. If they are afraid of a melt down because of it, is that not fear? China has over 1 billion people in it, are you telling me there could not be beter leaders? Have you ever heard of a chinese election before? no? BUT since its working for now we will ingnore it, comeon...
I assure you, there are more important things than internet freedom. What are they going to do with outside info, assuming it's useful and non-bias. Will it feed them when there's a famine? Will it house them from rain when their make-shift shaft falls apart? It's non-trivial. When the standard of living is up to par, the gov't will adjust itself to citizens' demand for more freedoms, if it doesn't want to risk getting overthrown. These outside info, with agenda of its own, will create unnecessary dissents, and with dissents it will slow down progress... economic progress, no matter how small the group is. It will be disruptive.
Also, this is a very important point... your point is about getting the net to the people... but if the people can't afford computer and the monthly fee for usage of internet, then what's the point if the majority can't access the info on the internet? How about raise the standard of living for the people so almost anyone can buy one, then worry later about internet freedom.
Well Being > Freedom
As I said, you need to get your priorities straight.
15 years ago
Posts: 1668
Warn: Banned
Quote from aries_girl
I don't really know what it is like to live under communism, so for that bit I'm neutral. I have never gone to China, and it is true that Western media is generally biased against China. However, the Chinese people may want to live this way or not. In this case I am Switzerland.
My point is that you say "Religion is more tolerated in China than a lot other places, including the US." Perhaps it is true that more religions are widely accepted by China, but don't make China look like everyone is free to practice their religion. In the US there are some crazy right wing Christian people (Catholics included) who act horribly towards people of other religion which isn't right, but people are allowed to have free speech (Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh to name a few). I think that all religions should be allowed to live in harmony and worship whoever the heck they want to worship, and I think that the West and China need work in this department.
uhhh, you really have no right to talk then, lol.
Swiss banned Minarets.[Which are distinctive features on Islamic Mosques]
I must point out to you the difference between politics and religion. A legitimate religion is perfectly allowed in China. In fact, they get stipend money every year. But when a religious leader leads a revolt against the government, that becomes a matter of national security. Like I said, distinguish between politics and religion. When religious leader makes political motivation his main goal instead of what his religion teaches, he is then a political figure head.
As a final note to you, talk to some Chinese people, really. Go to Mainland China and see what all this is about. People are free to practice their religion in China, as long as it obeys the law. And those laws are pretty much the same as here in the U.S. Some fundamentalist religious groups will commit arsons and burn themselves to get political attention and need, those are not tolerated anywhere in the world, not just in China.
I can't really get you to see the light until you can pull your head out of the sand. It's kind of sad that some people still believe whatever they hear on the news. I don't understand how you can just pull things out of your behind without even going to China....
Quote from you_no_see_me_
this is not about cannibalism...please get back on topic
Quote from Toto
I think it is exactly the topic. I see nothing wrong.
15 years ago
Posts: 11
Quote from angelh3art
Fr33noob. I agree with your concerns. It's great that people like you have even thought about this situation because not many in the world actually care.
I will start by setting an example of my own experience.
19 years ago, in a small eastern european country called Lithuania, there was dictatorship and communism active.
No one complained, no one saw it as a bad thing (since they weren't introduced to a right of choice).
No one in the whole country were brave enough to uncover the truth behind why Lithuania only existed as a part of Russian communist empire, suppressed under a law of so called "equality", not until ONE person, who was a Lithuanian news reporter showed her concerns towards the countrys well being. She locked herself in a television tower in southern part of the capital and asked people (mere civilians) to come help her support this rebelious act to prevent the suppression of dictatorship and free the country to implement democracy. She broadcasted the news on all channels until the outer reaches of europe (independent of Russian communist empire), saw it and decided to announce Lithuania as an independent society, Bare in mind that Lithuania as a name of the country didn't even exist whilst in the Russian communist empire.Civilian people took part in this, led by a single person who they believed would bring them a better future since the country barely made it half way to second world country with communism active. Now, they are actively more than half way to the first world. WHY? Because it is led by an independent society that can make choices THEMSELVES.
WHY didn't people just ignore the journalist and say "well communism has helped us to reach second world". BECAUSE they wanted to be free and independent. BECAUSE they were introduced to what FREEDOM really is. And don't start telling me all this bullshit how Chinese people are happy that the communism is leading them somewhere. THEY do not have a right of choice!. They have no freedom of speech even. Like freenoob mentioned, the www. (which should stand for WORLD WIDE WEB) is fucking blocked! (google?o_O)
Reason why chinese people aren't showing the concern is mainly because they are suppressed under a fear of governments corruption and fear of death, whereas a sacrifice of a few would bring the country the freedom it really deserves. (Think about it there is no elections! Who even asks these people IF THEY WANT or NOT to be free from communism?) NO ONE!. this is because they have NO CHOICE. That is what fr33noob was trying to say.
Before you post a reply to this thread. Remember! The lack of concern for others just shows what a petty and ignorant bastard you really are. Just because you live in a country which doesn't have communism and YOU KNOW what it's like to have a choice doesn't mean you shouldn't even show a concern for these people that assemble 1/7th of the worldwide community!! China contains over one billion people! That is a lot. But who is there to speak for them? Who is there to introduce them to a chance of HAVING A CHOICE! It doesn't matter what choice it is. In the end they might even accept communism instead of democracy. But it's not for you, me or most of all, NOT for the government to decide. Don't they deserve a freedom of speech and a right to know?
Just think about that.
Just want to say, great story. But it doesn't apply to China. Please ask the "not well off" Indians what they think of their gov't. They'll complain about how they rarely gets things done because different factions have different special interests. So even if one group introduce a great, great law that will benefit the general populous, the others will filibuster that law into a hellhole. It means slow or no progress.
People really need to think outside of the box. There are only two reasons why a person think democr... republ... corporatism is good for the people. Either they are naive and think having choice will suddenly solve everything, or they want to destabilize the country that are ill-prepare for such gov't they don't want it to grow too fast and too strong.
15 years ago
Posts: 1310
Yeah... Democrazy is anything but a corrupt piece of shit...
Corruption exist, because there are MANY advantages for corrupt people, in China many of these advantages are taken away, because your old brother aka the government will KILL YOU, if you do anything to enrich yourself while hurting the government and its image (hurting the people).
In Democrazy most countries get a son of a bitch that for 4 to 6 years will drain the country's wealth and get himself richer... or at the very least (in order to protect the image) his friends.
In China the same people rule and as such, when they are satisfied the wealth will begin to spread around...
See? Is much better to have the same people getting richer... as long as those people have common sense and a desire to keep the lesser man happy, then things will be A FUCKING LOT BETTER and MUCH MORE STABLE, than in your average piece of shit... aka Democrazy
and I live in a Third world Demoshit, so I know a HECK lot more of what i am talking about than most of you free speech loving nuttards...
PS: I don't think you are truly free in any country in the face of the earth, you are just given a little more leeway in some countries.
and Yeah... I am pissed today and this nonsense is not helping...
15 years ago
Posts: 774
Okay I remembered WHAT the youth don't know about, it was the tragedy of Tiananmen Square.
Now a post-doctoral fellow in Chinese studies at Harvard University, He frequently encounters these brash revisionists at academic conferences. Two years ago in San Francisco, she listened in dismay as one visiting student challenged her depictions of Tiananmen as a step backward for their homeland. Sure a few lives were lost, the girl shrugged, but the military crackdown was needed to restore order, and with order has come double-digit economic growth. “These students get very angry with me,” He says. “All I can do is tell them that this is what I know about Tiananmen.”
They are given a censored version that is wrong. It is important to teach children every side of everything. Although history is written by the winners, we live in a day and age where that should be considered unacceptable.
15 years ago
Posts: 289
@ Chaoswind... reason will probably not work, but i suggest you consider recent history and news (i don't know what you consider "freedom") but in a country like China where the greatest >>peacetime genocide<< of the 20th century happened i don't think your argument stands, look at what news escapes about North Korea today and imagine that on a scale of a country as large as China with a ruler who once gladly exchanged millions of tons of agricultural exports from his own starving unaware population in exchange for unsustainable military production and imports
i don't think 3rd world is an accurate term anymore after the fall of the USSR, Yugoslavia, and China's economic expansion (regardless) the difference between open government and the communist/dictatorial model is the liberty to retain your own possessions and to accumulate prosperity, in some degree you are right about hoarding of wealth by individuals, but government in free countries exist to protect the opportunity for "pursuit of happiness" if you will
@Kitteh it is pretty sad, i spend alot of time working w/ Brainwashed Chinese youth also 😔
15 years ago
Posts: 838
Quote from ManicFreak
People really need to think outside of the box. There are only two reasons why a person think democr... republ... corporatism is good for the people. Either they are naive and think having choice will suddenly solve everything, or they want to destabilize the country that are ill-prepare for such gov't they don't want it to grow too fast and too strong.
Either that or it could be that people believe greater civil liberties would benefit the people on the mainland. It has happened before. Free market economics is what has driven China's economy since Deng Xiaoping took charge. Or would you say the 2004 amendment to their constitution protecting private assets goes against the principles of a communist society?
Relaxing restrictions on speech and media will create a level of unrest but that unrest will also create accountability on the part of government officials to the people under them (A.K.A.- Keep them happy). Slam it shut and officials only have to answer to other officials; leading to a potentially more efficient system but also an environment that tends to foster more corruption. China tries to counterbalance this with harsh threats of imprisonment and execution but the corruption is there. Inspectors gloss over poor building construction, lead gets into paint and food gets tainted with deadly additives.
Really, in the end all you have to understand is that China, for all its power and growing wealth, is still very much stuck in a fearful isolationist mindset caused by centuries of invading forces screwing it over. The people do not want to see it cut up into spheres of influences again or another rape of Nanjing or another sick man of Asia comment and are willing to put up with a lot of crap because of it. So long as the economy is doing good, no one will complain but when the economy goes to shit like all economies invariably do, the restrictions on speech will only serve as a pressure cooker without a release valve.
As for Google, anyone who said Google was failing in China before they stopped censoring were either idiots, liars or both. Google was the second biggest search engine in China behind Baidu, established R&D/sales offices that employed and was well positioned with its partnerships with the local telecoms and internet companies to gain even more as they developed/promoted cloud computing there. The only reason it left was because it was attacked in China, possibly by China and China essentially shrugged. The censorship issue was just a failed attempt to get some reparations for the attack. Jumping to HK was it being fed up with dealing with a government that was growing increasingly hostile to it and foreign companies in general.
15 years ago
Posts: 161
I'm gonna throw a new bone here... and you guys really need to know this before further argument... so that you guys can make better arguments.
(Especially the "for democracy" people that posted)
Communism is not the opposite of democracy.
The philosophical meaning of democracy, the equality of the people (mainly power) in fact applies better to communism as it forces not only their status but wealth to be equal. And as we can easily see, wealth is a huge factor in determining someone's power.
Communism also does not dictate that the political form of democracy (actually should be saying republic) cannot be held. Communism requires something like a dominant party. If 51% of the people voted for 1 party, you have a dominant party. Otherwise, you can also form coalitions to create the dominant party. So, one party simply needs to be in FULL control.
People voting is not against the ideals of communism. The opposite is rather truth. The visions of Marx for communism claimed that people should vote for their government, a democratic government.
North Korea's full name is actually Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Meaning, people have equal power and have the power to choose their government as well (although how, exactly in NK is questionable -- but we can still see the INITIAL intention of the state form and non collision of communism and republic/democracy).
Bone #2
China's Internet is by definition not corrupted. Why? Because they are doing it for their belief that it is for the best. Whether or not you disagree does not sway the definition at stake. If you want corruption about the Internet, no need to look very far. Canada is at one of the world's worst right now. Canada's Internet development has ceased since more than a decade ago and due to the mandated monopoly given by the government, the corporations abuse it. They lobby the government to shut up for the truth and rights and they also control the media to brainwash people. Bell Canada has a freaking Internet package called "Fibe". So many people think they're getting fiber connection. WRONG. It's copper folks, same stuff dial up is made up of. They even lie to their customers or create more misrepresentation of the reality. This kind of misrepresentation and manipulation of the government is called corruption.
China's Internet is simply censoring. Do you think YOUR Internet is not censored? WRONG. Every Internet in the world is censored at the government level to a degree. What's blocked off in US/Can? Things like websites reported for child porn, etc which you ALL would agree that needs to gtfo. If you don't agree to that kind of stuff, you gtfo. China simply chooses to set the bar higher to meet their standards. It's not just china that has a higher bar. There are various levels of censorship. Also, do you know who makes the programs that China uses to censor? It's an American company (or at least was a couple yrs ago, dunno if they still retained them). lol
Idealistically speaking, communism is inheritantly lot less likely to have corruption b/c a person has no wealth. The people do. So, the things you do as a government, cannot benefit your personal agenda as much to the free market society.
I'm not chinese, but I say I would vote for world wide communism. B/c distributed communism doesn't work as well as Marx envisioned as we can see today.
15 years ago
Posts: 838
@Grumpy
Quite a few inaccuracies with your assessment. Most minor. One major.
-
Chinese communism is not the classic interpretation of communism. Its not looking to overthrow the bourgeoisie to create a classless society. It is not immune to the corruption the way an an ideal communist society would be.
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It has instituted a lot of reforms that do allow individuals to accrue a lot of wealth. In other words, the rich still exists in China and they do have greater influence over China than the poor.
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China does not simply censor results. It actively works to monitor its people. It collects private information like ID numbers and photos, whether by laws required for subscriptions as in the godaddy case or programs like the Green Dam Youth Escort program they made using stolen code from the U.S. This is all fine and dandy if you trust your government but I wouldn't trust my mother with some of the info they block and collect much less China.
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China does hold elections on the local people's congress. Everything else is pretty much controlled by the Communist party.
15 years ago
Posts: 603
China's Internet is by definition not corrupted. Why? Because they are doing it for their belief that it is for the best.
Just comeon.... 🤣
Blocking cnn is their belife? www. it really should be cww. 🤣
(world wide web) incase you wounderd.
English is a world trade language right> and cnn is the world news right, so why block world news?
Hm? Their belifes might shatter 😲 No, its purely political and in a country of over 1 billion people just over 1/7 of the worlds population...Is were this is happening with not much question.
Sure it works but there could be better.
China's Internet is simply censoring. Do you think YOUR Internet is not censored? WRONG. Every Internet in the world is censored at the government level to a degree
I can tell you in england the only thing thats censord is child porn. 😛
That is not political now is it? Look carefully at what they bann...I said in my post what a fair and constuctive bann is.
Even after they bann some of it people can still activate some.Why? Because our net does not act as a server, it connects us to the world wide web.
And i never said communism is BAD, just looking at beter options, gtfo? Hum? Are you pissing over your territory in which you wish to mark?
I am not saying we should force them to have democracy, they should just have a choice to decide on certain things like these.
[img]http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/fr33noob/on3winged9.jpg[/img]
I believe in letting people do as they wish, as do I myself. Sometimes, of course, what I wish to do is kill them and they do not wish to die. This gives life interest.
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/26.jpg[/img]
15 years ago
Posts: 1668
Warn: Banned
Quite right Drunkguy,
\
2) It has instituted a lot of reforms that do allow individuals to accrue a lot of wealth. In other words, the rich still exists in China and they do have greater influence over China than the poor.
- China does not simply censor results. It actively works to monitor its people. It collects private information like ID numbers and photos, whether by laws required for subscriptions as in the godaddy case or programs like the Green Dam Youth Escort program they made using stolen code from the U.S. This is all fine and dandy if you trust your government but I wouldn't trust my mother with some of the info they block and collect much less China.
Well, for number 3, EVERY country in the world does that. I mean look at how much online security went up after the twin tower.
number 2, right, that is the result of China's reform policies. Under Den Xiaoping, China transformed its economy into a mixed economy. Class distinction became clear after the introduction of some major capitalistic policies.
As for Google, anyone who said Google was failing in China before they stopped censoring were either idiots, liars or both. Google was the second biggest search engine in China behind Baidu, established R&D/sales offices that employed and was well positioned with its partnerships with the local telecoms and internet companies to gain even more as they developed/promoted cloud computing there. The only reason it left was because it was attacked in China, possibly by China and China essentially shrugged. The censorship issue was just a failed attempt to get some reparations for the attack. Jumping to HK was it being fed up with dealing with a government that was growing increasingly hostile to it and foreign companies in general.
I like how you like to use to quotation " idiots, liars or both" as a modification of John McCain's quotation. John McCain fan?
anyway, on the part of Google. This whole issue involves Google getting pissed off at all the hackers in China attacking Google. I personally don't think the government organized an attack. It's probably come little Chinese kid playing too much WOW. The fact is, Google at first threatened to leaven China all together and end their service. But after days of making a scene about it, they quietly moved to Hong Kong, which is still in China.....What the hell? That didn't do anything. I hope they know moving to Hong Kong doesn't change anything. To me, they were trying to bluff China, but lost, and realized that they still needed business so they moved to Hong Kong instead of leaving all together. Hey, if Google leaves, Baidu would have no other competitor. Imagine the amount of money that site would make!!! hey, here's a crazy idea, knowing Google is so sensitive on this issue, maybe Baidu had someone intrude Google. And the tactic almost worked too! Google almost left, but didn't.
I like to say two things lastly:
- You can't go around accusing a country's government of trying to hack you just based on some suspicion. You have to have proof.
- It's not the government's problem if your business is hacked. It's called having a good security system. That's the problem of the business.
Quote from you_no_see_me_
this is not about cannibalism...please get back on topic
Quote from Toto
I think it is exactly the topic. I see nothing wrong.
15 years ago
Posts: 1310
Quote from fr33noob
China's Internet is by definition not corrupted. Why? Because they are doing it for their belief that it is for the best.
Just comeon.... 🤣
Blocking cnn is their belife? www. it really should be cww. 🤣
(world wide web) incase you wounderd.English is a world trade language right> and cnn is the world news right, so why block world news?
Hm? Their belifes might shatter 😲 No, its purely political and in a country of over 1 billion people just over 1/7 of the worlds population...Is were this is happening with not much question.Sure it works but there could be better.
China's Internet is simply censoring. Do you think YOUR Internet is not censored? WRONG. Every Internet in the world is censored at the government level to a degree
I can tell you in england the only thing thats censord is child porn. 😛
That is not political now is it? Look carefully at what they bann...I said in my post what a fair and constuctive bann is.
Even after they bann some of it people can still activate some.Why? Because our net does not act as a server, it connects us to the world wide web.And i never said communism is BAD, just looking at beter options, gtfo? Hum? Are you pissing over your territory in which you wish to mark?
I am not saying we should force them to have democracy, they should just have a choice to decide on certain things like these.
Holy shit!!! Blocking CNN the biggest bogus news right after Fox news?
CNN is like ANY other corporate media, if it hurts their special interest, then they are not airing it.
People open your eyes, most news networks just show the convenient part of the news, or the parts that will earn them more viewers... is a business, nothing more and nothing less, and China HAS ALL THE RIGHT in the world to keep competition OUT of their country.
CNN is a worlds news? then why I didn't hear about the serial murder of dudes in women dress (forgot the term) in my country, or how a guy jumped off a bridge in order to save a girl that attempted suicide?
Get real, CNN is a business, and they will only air things that will be beneficial for their business plan.
Also everyone has a Choice:
You don't like what your government is doing, then you do something about it... Protest? yeah be my guess, revolts? why not? in the end is a choice like any other, but like with any choice you have to bear the consequences... if you Protest, the police will shot tear gas at you... if you revolt you are likely to get shot or arrested (BOTH)... is CHANGE not worth the risk? no... then DON'T FUCKING DO IT... after all the system and human nature are inherently wrong, so the change you seek will likely only make things worse... or that is the likely case.
15 years ago
Posts: 603
🤣 🤣
You are just validating me, rule with fear is corrupt my friend.
-CNN covers majour news across the world-
-NOT every thing-
You think murder only happen where you are? African countries all those countries under the raidar have it too. They only capatalize on majour news.
They have the right, But none of that bull about belife. Its just a tactical move by govenments with the governments interest in mind, nothing more.
They should have a choice.
We not living in the1900s anymore.
[img]http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/fr33noob/on3winged9.jpg[/img]
I believe in letting people do as they wish, as do I myself. Sometimes, of course, what I wish to do is kill them and they do not wish to die. This gives life interest.
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/26.jpg[/img]
15 years ago
Posts: 1310
-_-
Then go out and revolt, and lets see how your superior type of government reacts
Be it the United States, China, Iran, Russia, Germany, South Africa, Colombia... if you go against the status quo, then you are going to get mauled... as simple as that...
Go out and tell your government NO internet content should be censored, tell them you want to allow it all... and wait for their reaction.
