Quote from ahoaho

Quote from Nins_Leprechaun

Quote from ahoaho

^I'm sure you wear leather, though. That's also animal skin.

Once again, people will do what they do, and there is little we can do to stop them. If you want to be disgusted, feel free, but I wouldn't condone a person or organization from a foreign country going in and stopping these people from doing what they do to survive. All things come around in the end, and if what they are doing is truly evil, they will get theirs in the end. I have enough to worry about without adding Chinese Fur producers to the list.

Actually the vast majority of leather that we use are by-products of the meat, dairy or wool industries, and even then the cost for the skins constitute 50% or more of the total cost of making a piece of leather, and obviously the animal is killed before skinning. Not really the same as killing a live animal for the sole purpose of wearing its fur.

You are killing an animal and using it's skin for adornment, clothing, and protective purposes. How is that any different than killing an animal and using it's fur for adornment, clothing, and/or protective purposes?

You know how silk is made right? You get the silk worms cocoon and you boil them alive. Then you take the silk out of the cocoon. I use to have silk worms as pets when I was growing up. They are really cool. I let them crawl on me, they don't bite either

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Quote from ahoaho

You are killing an animal and using it's skin for adornment, clothing, and protective purposes. How is that any different than killing an animal and using it's fur for adornment, clothing, and/or protective purposes?

The difference is about the necessity for the materials in question, and the methods used in gaining said materials. Notice how this thread is about Chinese fur farms, aka a humanitarian issue about seemingly excessive and unnecessary cruelty towards animals to get a single product which many people view as being largely unnecessary (fur). For some strange reason that makes me think that in terms of this debate, there is a big bloody difference between skins/hides which are acquired via industries that kill and process the animals in a relatively humane fashion (relative to the fur farms) for things like food, and are used to make a necessary product for our society (there are many benefits to real leather), versus fur farms.

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Quote from Nins_Leprechaun

Quote from ahoaho

You are killing an animal and using it's skin for adornment, clothing, and protective purposes. How is that any different than killing an animal and using it's fur for adornment, clothing, and/or protective purposes?

The difference is about the necessity for the materials in question, and the methods used in gaining said materials. Notice how this thread is about Chinese fur farms, aka a humanitarian issue about seemingly excessive and unnecessary cruelty towards animals to get a single product which many people view as being largely unnecessary (fur). For some strange reason that makes me think that in terms of this debate, there is a big bloody difference between skins/hides which are acquired via industries that kill and process the animals in a relatively humane fashion (relative to the fur farms) for things like food, and are used to make a necessary product for our society (there are many benefits to real leather), versus fur farms.

Honestly, I hardly see a difference. Since when is one way of killing something more humane than another? It still ends up dead. And there are many commercial substitutes for leathers. Also, don't forget the non-cattle skin leathers, such as deerskin, goatskin, snakeskin, and gatorskin. And to deem something unnecessary by YOUR standards infringes on the liberties of others, especially since you aren't a part of their society.

Furthermore, the term "fur-farm" is used deliberately in this instance because it has a negative connotation. You don't hear cattle ranches called "beef farms" or veal producers called "calf killers". To me, this is just another case of yellow journalism used by a certain organization to further its own special interest.

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@HeavennevaeH using synthetics is trading in one problem for another.

@ares6 some ppl already stated they could stand watching humans being tortured. while i do respect ur view on this issue, we live in a country where the constitution rules above all and it does condone torture. the world is a Fcked up place we lucky to live in a country where ppl give a damn about these issues.

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Quote from ahoaho

Honestly, I hardly see a difference. Since when is one way of killing something more humane than another? It still ends up dead. And there are many commercial substitutes for leathers. Also, don't forget the non-cattle skin leathers, such as deerskin, goatskin, snakeskin, and gatorskin. And to deem something unnecessary by YOUR standards infringes on the liberties of others, especially since you aren't a part of their society.

Furthermore, the term "fur-farm" is used deliberately in this instance because it has a negative connotation. You don't hear cattle ranches called "beef farms" or veal producers called "calf killers". To me, this is just another case of yellow journalism used by a certain organization to further its own special interest.

Alright before I enter mini rant mode let me first say that I am sorry for continuing a pointless flame war with some random dude for no reason other than self satisfaction (I'm irritated today, forgive me).

Anyways, are you trying to say that leather is unnecessary and provides few if any benefits to North American society? I'm assuming that’s what you want to say since I only stated that many people view fur as an unneeded product, and implied that leather serves many more useful purposes, which is true. If you really want to get into a debate of the benefits of leather, then please say so, since I would be delighted to point out the many uses for leather. Also goat and deer skin are not only more rare but can also be acquired via other industries (such as hunting and meat/dairy (surprise people eat and milk goats just like cows)). I'm assuming the statistics I mentioned earlier in regard to the cost of hides/skins in relation to the cost of making the leather didn't make you realize how it wouldn't be economically feasible to acquire hides from animals for the sole purpose of using their skin (except for expensive exotic skins like snake and alligator). In the case of exotic skins, well not only am I not saying that these types of leathers are really all that needed, how many people do you know who have things made out of snakes or alligators and are opposed to fur farms in China? Wasn't your whole argument the leather we (average person) have in our shoes and coats est., was basically no different than us wearing fur?

Now as for having no right to judge or even comment on my opinions of the Chinese practices, the fur produced in China is sold all over the world, so it isn't too far off base to make comments on how necessary fur is for our society since some of it is sold here. Besides there is no real issues with a human judging a different human’s society since they are in fact the same ruddy creature, just typically ignorance causes extremely misinformed judgments to be passed (not that it matters since I’m not talking about the Chinese here but our own nations/cultures)(to avoid confusion I will say PETA as well as many other groups are in fact guilty of passing said misinformed judgments).

As for a dead animal being dead, well yes. . . once the animal is killed its dead, but I ask you would you rather by skinned alive (which I imagine is a rather painful way to go, which is probably why it used to be used as a form of capital punishment) or shot in the head? Yea, you die both ways, but it’s natural for living things not to want to get hurt, and you would be lying to either yourself or others if you thought that you wouldn't really care either way. Humanitarian B.S aside, there’s also a difference in the justifiability of taking something from an already dead animal, versus killing the animal for the same object (not to say both fur and leather are comparable) (I take it back, that is humanitarian B.S, but the whole thread is about that so, w/e).

In summary, in terms of North American culture, yea there is a difference between our leather products and the fur produced in these "fur farms" that we are lead to believe are so horrible. I don’t really oppose these farms since frankly its none of my business and I'm not opposed to the fur trade in general.

If you read that whole rant, you deserve a cookie 😃

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Quote from Nins_Leprechaun

epic condescending wall of text

What I said in my most recent post has nothing to do with my personal opinion of this 'issue' (as I said, I don't really care). I was simply refuting your statement. Your argument for the practical uses of leather as opposed to the practical uses of fur is superfluous and unsubstantiated because of the readily available existence of leather substitutes. Now, that aside, the economical argument is somewhat valid, however, I must say that despite the fact that most cattle hide and pig skin can be readily garnered from meat producing ranches, many animals that are raised for their leathers, including deer(yes, deer are raised domestically for their skins and meat), goats(yes, I DO know that people eat goat products), and sheep, have less a demand for the meats than for the skins and the leather made from these skins.

As for knowing people who wear exotic leathers, I know far more people who wear snakeskin boots and alligator skin shoes, have snakeskin bags and alligator skin wallets, and sheepskin car seat covers than I do people who wear fur from whatever animals are raised on Chinese ranches. The people who do have fur have primarily rabbit fur from producers in the USA.

Furthermore, to say that fur itself is not useful is ignorant. It has been used for millenia as a form of clothing in every culture in the world. It can be argued that it has better insulating properties than synthetic products.

Also, lets not forget goose down. You think they just pluck the feathers and let the bird fly on? No. Most of the time, they are plucked alive, and then killed. And how many people do you know that eat goose? Far less than those who have goose down pillows and comforters.

As far of your killing argument, that's just humanitarian nonsense. Killing is killing, and the end result is the same whether it's slow or quick. For all you know, it could hurt more to get shot in the head than it does to be skinned alive.

As far as the as the US argument, I don't support the purchase of any Chinese made products in general. However, the only way to stop the influx of Chinese products is to raise tarrifs on Chinese goods and imported products, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. As for going into a country and stopping an industry, it's unethical and illegal. Sure, you can speak out against it, but it doesn't bother me, so I won't say a word about fur producers in China.

Now, where's my cookie?

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No no no, I said you DESERVE a cookie, I never said I was nice enough to give you one.

Anyways, yea I realized 2/3 of the way through my wall of text that we were actually debating different points, making both the tone and content of it somewhat pointless, but damn it I didn't write all that to delete it! Also, since I'm no longer as ticked (I'm no longer hungry) I'll just say I think I wasn't clear on my point regarding exotic skins, not that it matters. That and when I said furs are less useful then leather I was strictly speaking in todays day and age, in a North American society.

btw: that goose down one is actually a really good example >.>

Double dino to micro crimp!!!

Quote from Coccyzus

I like meat, and I have no issues with fur in and of itself.

Erm, yeah. Just gonna quote part of an earlier post here to state my point in general, since we're sort of off-topic anyway.

Yes, aho, good point on the goose down... and the use of the term "fur-farm" as well. I tend to agree with you, once it's dead it's dead. While it'd be great if the torture could be avoided, too, there are some things that just aren't probably going to happen anytime soon, especially when businesses put profit before everything else.

Now I'm off to go search my kitchen for the cookie I deserve.

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The only problem I would have with their method of killing is if it slowed down the process of making fur. If they are going to kill the animals, use something better to kill them, a surface that will cause more damage to them so they arent able to resist as much and less likely to survive. That makes skinning them easier and its probably better from an animal cruelty standpoint as well, but I dont really care about that so much.

As far as I am concerned humans are the most important species to me because I am a human myself, and we can do whatever the hell we want to anything we want as long as it doesnt hinder our progress or endanger our continued existence.

that is jus sick man. when i saw it i was like wtf is wrong wit chinese ppl damn thats messed up 😔

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Quote from Makaveli

that is jus sick man. when i saw it i was like wtf is wrong wit chinese ppl damn thats messed up 😔

If you could get more money to feed your family by providing furs that are arguably higher quality when garnered in this fashion, would you do it?

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Is there an actual, scientific proof that skinning them alive would give their fur higher quality?

Quote from amaranthine

Is there an actual, scientific proof that skinning them alive would give their fur higher quality?

Is there actual scientific proof that it doesn't? And even if there isn't scientific proof, it wouldn't matter because quality is subjective.

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But you just said "arguably higher quality when garnered in this fashion..." but there's no proof?

So if it's subjective, then why do the animals have to suffer like that if skinning them dead wouldn't matter anyways?

I understand that the people who do that do it for business and all that, but it's still unnecessarily cruel. I'm not opposing the fur trade or whatever (though I would never buy a fur coat), but it could still be handled in a better way. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

Quote from amaranthine

But you just said "arguably higher quality when garnered in this fashion..." but there's no proof?

So if it's subjective, then why do the animals have to suffer like that if skinning them dead wouldn't matter anyways?

I understand that the people who do that do it for business and all that, but it's still unnecessarily cruel. I'm not opposing the fur trade or whatever (though I would never buy a fur coat), but it could still be handled in a better way. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

It's also not a question of 'we' as it has nothing to do with me. I don't see it as any more cruel than killing them in the first place. And when I said arguably higher quality, I meant that one could argue that furs garnered in this fashion are arguably higher quality, not that they are higher quality. Once again, quality is subjective, which means that what is quality to one person might not be quality to another. If a person is going to sell furs, and the buy is willing to pay more for furs garnered in this fashion because he/she believes it yields a higher quality product, the seller/producer is going to do what will gain him the most profit.

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