@x0mbiec0rp

I understand that there are similarities between shoujo romance and shounen romance. But they are not equivalents. Because romance is so prevalent in shoujo/josei, even stories that have other important, co-existing plots (such as stories about girls pursuing an acting career like Skip Beat, or fantasy war dramas like Red River) are still termed romances. These manga are more the equivalent of Rurouni Kenshin and other shounen manga that have romance elements, but are not necessarily categorized as romances. That's why, in my opinion, all shounen manga with some romance are relevant to this discussion.

As for your critique of my interpretation of Pride and Prejudice, I can't really respond because you didn't provide what your alternative interpretation was, only that you had a different one and therefore mine must be wrong. In fact, I have read the book. Anyway, my interpretation was not really of the book itself, which is excellent for many reasons, but of the Pride and Prejudice phenomenon -- why it is the most popular work of fiction of all time, especially for women; why it has retained its appeal to modern generations; and how it influences romantic literature/movies/TV today.

Avatar by tassyn.livejournal.com

Reading: Kingdom, Sangokushi, Historie

Quote from Odette

@x0mbiec0rp

I understand that there are similarities between shoujo romance and shounen romance. But they are not equivalents. Because romance is so prevalent in shoujo/josei, even stories that have other important, co-existing plots (such as stories about girls pursuing an acting career like Skip Beat, or fantasy war dramas like Red River) are still termed romances. These manga are more the equivalent of Rurouni Kenshin and other shounen manga that have romance elements, but are not necessarily categorized as romances. That's why, in my opinion, all shounen manga with some romance are relevant to this discussion.

But that's not really a fair comparison. Just because shoujo is significantly more likely to contain romance, doesn't mean you should compare them to less romantic shounen. There are many manga classified as shoujo, the magical girl genre in particular, that have little romance that would better equate to action manga with a little romance. These contain similar themes, with main characters typically being powerful in their own right but occasionally getting help from a competent if not as powerful love interest.

Quote from Odette

As for your critique of my interpretation of Pride and Prejudice, I can't really respond because you didn't provide what your alternative interpretation was, only that you had a different one and therefore mine must be wrong. In fact, I have read the book. Anyway, my interpretation was not really of the book itself, which is excellent for many reasons, but of the Pride and Prejudice phenomenon -- why it is the most popular work of fiction of all time, especially for women; why it has retained its appeal to modern generations; and how it influences romantic literature/movies/TV today.

If you're not really referring to the book itself, then you probably shouldn't use specific examples. If you'd like my interpretation, it's not that she's looking for Mr. Darcy's approval so much that she originally sees him as a foul man and instead requires him to meet her own. In fact, rather than accepting marriages of convenience, and giving into the idea that a woman's position is tied to her husband, she rejects suitors who could improve her status because she finds their behavior towards her and her family both demeaning and appalling. It is not that she is seeking approval, but that she is rejecting those who have not earned her's.

This signature was recovered from Hades to serve in my rotting armies.

@x0mbiec0rp

Not having read much magical girl shoujo, I'm not sure which series you're referring to, but if the genre commonly features powerful girls with less powerful male love interests, then I think you could add those series to this thread (at least I'd be interested in learning what those titles are). They do count as romances, broadly. I guess that's something you disagree with, but, well, we can't agree on everything.

I never said Elizabeth was looking for Darcy's approval, and I don't think that, so you're debating with a straw man there. What I did say was pairing the heroine with a more powerful man is a common plot device to make the heroine look more powerful (like "hey, she must be pretty special herself to be able to handle a guy like him"), not necessarily weaker. However, this forces the heroine to borrow power from the male character through association. That's completely fine for Pride and Prejudice, which is a story that's already revolutionary for its time period. But today we could start imagining more stories about Elizabeths who are already powerful before meeting their Darcy. (And here again is my tendency to speak a little metaphorically -- Elizabeth as an idea, rather than the particular character in the book.)

Avatar by tassyn.livejournal.com

Reading: Kingdom, Sangokushi, Historie

Quote from Odette

I never said Elizabeth was looking for Darcy's approval, and I don't think that, so you're debating with a straw man there.

Oh really? What about when you explicitly said "Elizabeth needs Darcy's validation to be a great woman"? Did that not happen? Please don't try and act like you didn't. It's rather insulting.

Quote from Odette

What I did say was pairing the heroine with a more powerful man is a common plot device to make the heroine look more powerful (like "hey, she must be pretty special herself to be able to handle a guy like him"), not necessarily weaker. However, this forces the heroine to borrow power from the male character through association. That's completely fine for Pride and Prejudice, which is a story that's already revolutionary for its time period. Today, however, we could start imagining more stories about Elizabeths who are already powerful before meeting their Darcy. (And here again is my tendency to speak a little metaphorically -- Elizabeth as an idea, rather than the particular character in the book.)

...Please, just stop referencing Pride and Prejudice. It's a weak reference, and you've even said your not referring to the book itself (But you are. You even refer to the book by name.) so just drop it. Use a better example. Why don't you find something that better supports your arguments?

Anyway, so that we don't continue this into oblivion, I feel I should remind you of my original points.

1. Shounen romance DOES turn the issue around, and you shouldn't use examples that contain barely any romance as a comparison, since those are action manga where a hero needs to do great things. People have made this point in this very topic, and given actual shounen romance examples, so feel free to browse back through for examples.

2. Pride and Prejudice is a weak example. Don't specifically refer to it if it isn't what you're talking about.

This signature was recovered from Hades to serve in my rotting armies.

try yankee-kun to megane-chan, it's shounen though not shoujo. The hero and heroine are both morons but the guy having more common sense actually makes him weaker

Quote from x0mbiec0rp

Quote from Odette

I never said Elizabeth was looking for Darcy's approval, and I don't think that, so you're debating with a straw man there.

Oh really? What about when you explicitly said "Elizabeth needs Darcy's validation to be a great woman"? Did that not happen? Please don't try and act like you didn't. It's rather insulting.

No, if I really wanted to be insulting, I'd ask you -- just like how you asked me if I'd even read P&P -- whether you'd even read my post (did you ever think about how I'd feel about that?). Here, you've taken my words out of context, and even in that sentence, "need" means something completely different from "looking for" because it's a statement about the structure of the story, not about Elizabeth's inner thoughts and motives. I've tried explaining my thoughts to you, but it's obvious you aren't really interested in understanding them.

Also, I am not continuously referencing P&P. I only had to repeat the reference each time I had to respond to your responses. Now I'm going to stop.

How odd is it that my original post was under spoiler tags so that it wouldn't even be visible to people who didn't want to be bothered with it, but it's unexpectedly controversial.

Quote from x0mbiec0rp

1. Shounen romance DOES turn the issue around, and you shouldn't use examples that contain barely any romance as a comparison, since those are action manga where a hero needs to do great things. People have made this point in this very topic, and given actual shounen romance examples, so feel free to browse back through for examples.

Regarding the shounen romance comparisons, it's not as if I don't think they're relevant -- I'm just saying there's more to the picture.

Where are your examples of magical girl shoujo where the girl is more powerful? I do think that's very interesting, as I mentioned earlier.

Avatar by tassyn.livejournal.com

Reading: Kingdom, Sangokushi, Historie

Stay on topic please. How about some recommendations?

If you really want to discuss, please use the pm-ing feature.
(I love both Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth~ Just throwing that out there.)

Gar to Oujisama and Kuroneko Guardian are quick, fun reads. ^^

Avatar by tassyn.livejournal.com

Reading: Kingdom, Sangokushi, Historie

Weirdly enough, I talked with my vovinam sensei about this subject just a few days ago, because he's helping me with this story I'm writing and I wanted the main character -who is very strong- to be a girl, but when I told him that he made me change my mind.
Why?
Because I won't have any readers. Men are not interested in a feminin Miyamoto Musashi and women don't wanna see a successfull, strong woman -they get jealous.
It seems studies shown that women are more prone to stabbing in the back, ar work they cover and help each other less then men etc.
2. I think this also makes readers think 'if SHE could get such a man...'
3 The most 'normal' women I've met in manga written by men, though rarely as main char. Let's think at the infamous 'Ichi the killer' -that blonde prostitute is what I consider 'normal' and 'average' in a manga. I mean, she wasn't a genious, but she obviously wasn't stupid either. She wasn't super strong (or at all) but she didn't let those guys push her around etc. Even Shigurui's women are more realistic and with personality etc
4 I find it weird that the only manga I've read so far in witch women are treated mare than 'You are stupid so shut up, be pretty and let me protect you etc (and spread your legs biatch) ' are written by men
5 wow facepalm While writing this I realised most eroguro I've read also features the kind of female character you're looking for (until they are killed and then raped that is lol -but stay cool, that's not always the case)
Now that makes me worry.

Well, I am already pretty but I certainly want my ideal guy to be better-looking than I am. A girl can dream, you know... I don't care much about the other aspects though.

However, other girls might not care about looks. They might want their guy to be better than them in another aspect or more (maybe smarter, stronger though not better-looking, etc). Therefore, I think, mangaka create stories where the guy is superior in every aspect to the girl, just to make it safe, for girls with different types of dreams...

  🤣 

ugh, i agree. i read less and less shoujo manga these days because the heroine is almost ALWAYS inferior or made inferior to the male lead. even in shounen manga, tsundere's are a plenty and the cool capable female will lose her damn marbles around the male.

i find it sad that mangaka's need to make their heroines ditzy and incapable in order to cover their bases and sell to the larger market. couldn't mangaka make heroines people could aspire to? i hate the stereotype that girls are inherently cruel and competitive and back-stabbers at heart. i mean, yeah, girls have more tendencies to be that way, but not everyone is like that. this isnt mean girls. not all girls will be turned off by a lead that's stronger than they are; who knows, maybe they could even be inspired! (my sister was inspired by the lead male's mother in hana yori dango, lol)

i dont like ditzy stupid guys in my manga either, but it's still incredibly rare to find a manga with an extremely capable female and an average joe guy who gets her approval without her melting into a girly puddle or going tsundere.

i would recommend anything by ogawa yayoi except for candy life (which is still good, just has a weak heroine).

;D

What's bothering me isn't the fact that Mangakas choose to make ditzy lead female roles, it's that they have to. Think about it, if it wasn't selling then the mangaka wouldn't even be able to continue the series, yet everyone here is able to reference multiple mangas that contain terrible women. Literature shows us aspects of our society, and a part of our society is sexist. I apologize that I can't give you any recommendations for manga but I do like this debate and would like to offer my view on it.

1. The Aspects of a Man

It's possible that women are frail, clumsy, etc. because it is what emphasizes that they are women. Men are defined with all the good characteristics. Smart, cool, strong, etc. for readers to be able to distinguish between the main man and main woman, the mangaka has to put strong contrasting points of the character. Simply to be a woman is to not be a "man" which would be strong, smart, cool. Men are defined with all the good aspects and women are given the rest. Although there can be women who do possess strength, intelligence, etc. those women are more likely to be seen as acting manly. There just is no romance between a guy and a girl who is seen as manly (which is why emphasis is needed on the fact that the other person is a girl; she must lose her manly traits). I would suggest reading some shounen (or maybe something less romantically focused) and look for manly women if you want a girl who is smart, calm, cool.

2. Catch and Chase

Most stories have the man chasing after the girl. Men achieve to be better because if they don't then they can't get a girl. Women, on the other hand, are the ones being caught. If they want a man, they must be "easy". Think about it as a fish that wants to get caught: just look helpless.

3. The Lust of Love

This is like what sasaki kojiro said. People don't like a challenge. They don't want to deal with a person, they just want a man/woman + characteristics. To top it all off, they want to get this without doing a thing (it's too much effort to do anything). The thing is people don't understand love anymore. Love is not generalized; it is person specific. This is what I hate most about romance novels, manga, etc.: Love is above all else, even the love interest.

I apologize if I have offended anyone (especially with the 1st point).

@SemiGuest, I guess that commercially speaking, it may be considered more viable to portray women as being inherently inferior - and if that is so then it is indeed a sad statement of our society. A horrifyingly FREAKY statement, even. 😲 The points you made (1-3) convey very well (and very sarcastically, lol!) those sexist beliefs that pervade society and therefore manga... I'm afraid I'm not as much of a pessimist as you are about people in general! But still, I do admit that you may have made some good points... Even if not EVERYONE thinks that way, e.g. "people don't like a challenge," it's true that there are many who do. I mean, I've met these people, so I've got to admit that you have a point there...

But back to the topic about shoujo manga... I'm not sure, SemiGuest, that it is purely commerciality that makes mangakas choose to draw ditzy girls, or that it's to pander to a majority of sexist readers in society. Not all the time, anyway. Because how come there were so many more "accomplished" or "intelligent" girls/women in shoujo manga from the 70s, when things were supposed to be more sexist/traditional? Think about it... At least in ratio if not in total number, the ratio of smart/accomplished females in classic shoujo was actually much higher. It seemed like there was always more of a point to these female characters than just to love or fall in love - they were always good at something. But then... What the heck happened after that? Why did mangakas choose to water things down with lame female protagonists? What happened?

I'm seriously asking... I'm very puzzled by this. I mean, look at Rose of Versailles, Glass Mask, Sailor Moon... Some of the most successful and therefore COMMERCIALLY PROFITABLE shoujo mangas of the 70s/80s always had smart/capable heroines (even if they were sometimes really "girly," that didn't mean they couldn't also be really smart or really strong). So it's not like mangakas thought: "Hey, wait a minute. I won't make any money, or I won't get published unless I dumb down my heroines." Obviously they wouldn't think that. Why would they have thought that, with so any success stories of accomplished female protagonists around them? That means there must be something else behind this shift towards dumbing down girls in manga... Question is, what is it?

Any guesses?

Edit: Actually, scratch that - even TODAY, the most commercially successful shoujo mangas have intelligent/accomplished heroines. Like Skip Beat! or Ouran High School Host Club... They're the best-sellers, the classic-makers, the money-minters. Lol. So in fact that proves that more girls can relate to characters that can actually do something other than just moon over guys... Sure, they may want a hot/awesome guy as a love interest, but the girl should at least be his equal in mental strength (or even totally pwn him like in Ouran, lol). Basically - strong female characters are a GOOD INVESTMENT. Which is why it's even more puzzling that many shoujo mangakas persist in writing stories that they know won't sell (or won't sell as much), and why publishers persist in publishing them... Maybe they think these ditzy characters will sell, but it's a misconception about womanhood and society that doesn't actually translate into reality? (Or at least not enough to make a commercial dent?) What do you think?

I like heroines I can look up to, and I think this discussion is really interesting. It's true--cool heroines are more popular. Hm.

I think someone mentioned Gokusen earlier? Yankumi definitely has her strong points. What I like about her, however, is that she tends to fall for guys whose strong point complements rather than surpass her own. She's tough, strong, athletic, that sort of thing. Does she go for guys who are physically stronger than she is? No, she goes for smart guys. She complements their weaknesses and vice versa. 😀 (Guys....the plural makes it sounds like she falls for lots of different guys through the series, doesn't it? -_-; But what I'm saying applies to both Shinohara and Shin.....so...plural it is.)

By the way, I think W-Juliet has a great heroine. Cheerful, athletic, good with people, good at acting....but don't ask her about her math scores. 🤣 She's someone I admire, though.

They say it's the thought that counts, but then they tell you, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions......"

Will no one scanlate Takahashi Miyuki?! T_T

The Tarot Cafe

SO GOOD. There is some shounen-ai but I think you like yaoi? But the girl is amazing. She does her own thing and kicks butt. She does have a moment of weakness that comes back and bites her but she leaves the situation with her head held high.

Quite possibly the best ending I've ever read or seen. EVER!

Hana ni Arashi
So funny and I felt that the couple was fairly evenly matched. She remains strong willed until the very end. Really nice 🙂

In passing comment... The only problem with head strong characters is that they are sometimes hard to maneuver. For instance Haruhi from Ouran High... everyone KNOWS the story wouldn't go anywhere if they let her lead.

The thing is that a heroine has to have a flaw. This flaw is SUPPOSED to be mended by the end. If it is I'm happy. If it isn't I'm a little disappointed. If they are weak in the beginning I expect them to be better by the end.

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