Lybi: That... might be true, but I know quite a few Christians who think differently. They believe that God is unchanging through the millenia. I wonder if Zubz still posts on here -- we've had discussions about God through PMs... and wow, there was so much text... but anywho, he definitely says that God is unchanging.

Now, about the absolute, I still disagree.

God is real. GOD ROCKS.

...from that post by kotocheese... if that's not absolute, then I don't know what is. He was taught (as many other Christians have been) that God truly exists. You can question, but ultimately, you'll find God anyway. Or else you'll be cast into hell. <_<;

But yeah. Lybi, are you talking about the different sects preaching about how you should interpret the Bible and such? I mean, I guess if you look at it that way, it does change...

But if it's too radical of a change (say, for example, Mormonism), then Christians all over claim that that religion is not Christianity. ...Even though Mormons believe they are Christian.

About your faith argument... err... I'm not quite sure that can be classified as the same faith as believing in God. God hasn't appeared 50 times in your life... but you question whether he'll appear again... God never appears, but you'll have to have faith that he's there.

It feels a bit different when you're talking about light bulbs and switches. ^_^;; heh. When a light bulb doesn't work, scientists (and I hope everyone) would find the problem, then go fix it. But.. if God doesn't appear, it's more like, have faith that he will when you die. :[

In that aspect, I feel that God can't exist. There's nothing concrete there even to have a bit of faith on. Well, maybe except the Bible, but I argue that it's not authentic due to translations and such. ;]

-Max

Quote from Lybi

Quote from twxm

My main problem with religions is that while they have very nice central beliefs, there are also a bunch of random things in them that make no sense.

I'm sure there's a reason behind these nonsensical random things, but honestly, I believe that these are superstitions that humans make up, whether or not God exists.

Quote from ShadwsofArchonia

God is basically impossible. He can't exist and at the same time he can, however in my personal view of things. I'd rather believe that he does not exist at all. Religion hinders scientific progress.

Lastly, three words. Man Made God.

In what way is God impossible? His existence is definitely a possibility, so far as I see. I do agree with you, however, that religion tends to hinder scientific progress, but that's the fault of the humans, not the religion.
And in a way, science is also a religion, it's belief. One can never prove anything. Just because the light bulb lights up the fifty times you click the switch, it doesn't mean that the switch causes the light bulb to light up. (This is the idea behind scientific experiments and statistics)

The fault, obviously lies with humans. Simply because humans created religions, humans created an idea of god. To describe something that was beyond their comprehension or to describe a reference to an event that either brought fortune or failure, which was also beyond their control.

God's existence is a moral debate, it's not a definite possibility. Because of a loop. There can be a god for those who want to believe there is, but in a scientific approach there can't be one. Why? Once again the loop, which you might be wondering what that is. So here it is, The Loop.

Humans exist, but who created humans? god? Aliens? If created by Aliens, then who created Aliens, God? Other Aliens? If Other Aliens exist, who created those Aliens, God? Other other Aliens?

And the loop will continue, there can't be an existence for god with a scientific approach. Something can not be created from nothing. Basic laws of Energy.

Thus, you can't say God created the Universe. Because in that case I would question, who created God?

And you can't Answer God created himself. One can't really create himself. That would cause a temporal paradox. One can't really exist in more than one plane of existence, at the exact same time, re-enacting the exact same event, to create more than one outcome. It's impossible.

But then you'll say he's god. He can do anything, unfortunately that is strictly opinion and can't be proven. Omnipotence is once again a word created by humans, and applied by humans. Thus anything also said by humans is false, for the majority. but science is derived from logic. And you can prove something wrong with logic. But you can't disprove logic itself, hence in scientific theory. God can not exist, because of the Loop.

"Just because the light bulb lights up the fifty times you click the switch, it doesn't mean that the switch causes the light bulb to light up. (This is the idea behind scientific experiments and statistics)"

Please, refrain from being an arrogant imbecile. Please. The Switch is well a switch. It controls the electricity that would flow into the filament wire, which would then heat up to produce light and heat. Everything that has a cause, has an effect. The Light Switch is a key that causes the bulb to light up. The Electricity is the driving force, when combined together. You get the result that, every single time that you flip the switch the light bulb will ALWAYS light up.

Unless;

1. There is no electricity flowing in order for the filament to keep on accumulating energy, causing it to heat up and thus produce light.

and

2. The filament that exists within the vaccum, is still intact. Otherwise there will be no heat nor any light.

Quote from DeLtA_IjK

Lybi: That... might be true, but I know quite a few Christians who think differently. They believe that God is unchanging through the millenia. I wonder if Zubz still posts on here -- we've had discussions about God through PMs... and wow, there was so much text... but anywho, he definitely says that God is unchanging.

You are definitely right in that there are Christians who believe their God is absolutely unchanging. It's a bit ironic because the God they believed in have definitely changed. I mean that although the actual individual's God may not change, their ancestors' God is different from their God. Ahh. This is is getting messy. @.@

Okay, take one Christian who believes God is all good, almighty, and forever. That's pretty typical today. Anyway, in early Christianity, they believed that God was very cruel. You were doomed to Hell for the smallest sin, with no hope of forgiveness. Even earlier, early Jews did not believe God was almighty or even all good.

You can see that religion changes heavily throughout time, just not the actual individuals, whether or not they know it.

Quote from kotocheese

God is real. GOD ROCKS.

.< I wasn't sure if this guy was serious or not. It wasn't even an argument >.<

Quote from DeLtA_ljK

But if it's too radical of a change (say, for example, Mormonism), then Christians all over claim that that religion is not Christianity. ...Even though Mormons believe they are Christian.

You're right, (Whoa! I just read an article where it claimed 1/5 Americans believe the Sun revolves around the Earth!! (Okay, just something random)) it's just that Christianity changes at a far slower rate than science.

Quote from DeLtA_ljK

About your faith argument... err... I'm not quite sure that can be classified as the same faith as believing in God. God hasn't appeared 50 times in your life... but you question whether he'll appear again... God never appears, but you'll have to have faith that he's there....

.< What I meant by that argument is even if you press the switch 50 times, and the light turns on every one of those fifty times, that does not mean that the switch causes the light to turn on. It just may just have been 50 coincidences. Now the probability of that is low, but it's still a possibility, and it's a possibility that you can't get rid of, no matter how many times you press the light switch. So in that way, science is a belief, like I've said before. You have faith in the current theories of science

But....

Quote from DeLtA_ljK

In that aspect, I feel that God can't exist. There's nothing concrete there even to have a bit of faith on. Well, maybe except the Bible, but I argue that it's not authentic due to translations and such. ;]

In the end, you're right, there is hardly any evidence of God. Even the validity of the Bible is questionable, considering it's origins and unreliable translations. (When I was really small, I mused to myself how the Bible might be a book that a bunch of kids wrote as a joke and the world took it too seriously (like in 20th Century Boys >.<!!)) So I can see your point of view. Oh, but there are Christians who will claim concrete evidence though (miracles and such), but I haven't looked into actual cases, so I can't comment on anything there.

[img]http://dragcave.net/image/GKln.gif[/img]

Quote from Lybi
"Okay, take one Christian who believes God is all good, almighty, and forever. That's pretty typical today. Anyway, in early Christianity, they believed that God was very cruel. You were doomed to Hell for the smallest sin, with no hope of forgiveness. Even earlier, early Jews did not believe God was almighty or even all good.

You can see that religion changes heavily throughout time, just not the actual individuals, whether or not they know it."

Hey Lybi, that whole idea of God sentencing you to hell for the smallest of sins, isn't quite correct. You are sentenced to Hell for any sin. Big or small. If you commit one than it's game over, and you are separated from God. That hasn't changed. The only thing that has changed is the covenant, and it is much sweeter than in the past.

Quote from Lybi
"In the end, you're right, there is hardly any evidence of God. Even the validity of the Bible is questionable, considering it's origins and unreliable translations. (When I was really small, I mused to myself how the Bible might be a book that a bunch of kids wrote as a joke and the world took it too seriously (like in 20th Century Boys >.<!!)) So I can see your point of view. Oh, but there are Christians who will claim concrete evidence though (miracles and such), but I haven't looked into actual cases, so I can't comment on anything there."

I can assure you there is move tangible and concrete evidence than just miracles. And as far as a bunch of kids making up a joke religion, it must have been pretty believable to live a life of poverty, and preach things that were sure to get them killed, which in the end did. If you are seriously looking for God, I'd be happy to share with you what I've found.

Quote from ShadwsofArchonia

"Just because the light bulb lights up the fifty times you click the switch, it doesn't mean that the switch causes the light bulb to light up. (This is the idea behind scientific experiments and statistics)"

Please, refrain from being an arrogant imbecile. Please. The Switch is well a switch. It controls the electricity that would flow into the filament wire, which would then heat up to produce light and heat. Everything that has a cause, has an effect. The Light Switch is a key that causes the bulb to light up. The Electricity is the driving force, when combined together. You get the result that, every single time that you flip the switch the light bulb will ALWAYS light up.

Unless;

1. There is no electricity flowing in order for the filament to keep on accumulating energy, causing it to heat up and thus produce light.

and

2. The filament that exists within the vaccum, is still intact. Otherwise there will be no heat nor any light.

.< I didn't realize that I was coming off as an arrogant imbecile. I just meant to bring up a point of view. But my lightbulb argument, I suppose, is more of a statistical and philosophical argument. So I guess I'll drop that argument then, if it's too offending to you >.<

Ahh. I'm being a bit overwhelmed @.@ Okay Zubz. You may be right, but I'm sure there are definitely different sects out there that preach different things.

Oh! But ShadowsofArchonia made me realize something. I may be offending some people with my posts, so I want to apologize if something I said was very upsetting to you. If so, please tell me so that in the future, I can learn to phrase things or not to say certain things to avoid upsetting someone. Sorry, and thank you.

[img]http://dragcave.net/image/GKln.gif[/img]

Lol. Lybi, you're prefectly fine. Anyone can point out faults in arguments, but...

Shadows ofArchonia, please refrain from making any personal attacks. Haha... it's just not nice. You can say that the argument she made was really weak, but calling her an arrogant imbecile is totally not cool. 😛

At the very least, I understand what she means. She's trying to use statistics to verify that possibly Coulomb and Gauss' laws might be incomplete... that just maybe our understanding of electricity and magnetism could be governed by a different force altogether.

Wait what? 1/5 of Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth? ... O_O; Um. What? ...

I feel pity for our nation.

-Max

huh. someone posted here again.well it is healthy to talk things over...
but im too lazy for my fiery arguments.
ppl-there is no god, and good night.

p.s: and zubz, if i recall correctly in some point of the history ppl could Pay good money to the church in order to erase their sins?

(if you wanna read my opinion about the existance of god, and how SOME of us proved the fact he does not exist, and was clearly created as a survival technique, take 3-4 pages back tothis point and read on 😀 )

the best security guard, EVER.

Can't help it, if the person's argument screams it out for them.

My simple arguement/opinion:

God and religion are ideas created to

1. explain the unexplainable
2. set a moral standard which would organize the society

However, now that the "unexplainable" are slowly becoming logical, the ideas start to be questioned. That's where society is today. 😀

[img]http://www.saiyanisland.com/bleach/tests/personality/ichigo.gif[/img]

"The only thing to fear is fear itself" (Franklin D Roosevelt)

Its not always what it looks like...

Quote from totalanime

My simple arguement/opinion:

God and religion are ideas created to

1. explain the unexplainable
2. set a moral standard which would organize the society

However, now that the "unexplainable" are slowly becoming logical, the ideas start to be questioned. That's where society is today. 😀

dont forget the "survival technique" theory.
(the theory states that there are ppl who might start runnin and jump off a cliff if the idea of "there is no point in living" get into their head 😛 )

the best security guard, EVER.

Heheh but then the process of natural selection work start workin' and those offspring of those who didn't die would tend not to think that way. ;P

Hahahah.. =) Hoo boy. So off topic.

But, I'll believe what I believe, and it's good to hear what others have to say. Oftentimes, you find something interesting arguing for the other side.. ^_^

-Max

Quote from moritana

huh. someone posted here again.well it is healthy to talk things over...
but im too lazy for my fiery arguments.
ppl-there is no god, and good night.

p.s: and zubz, if i recall correctly in some point of the history ppl could Pay good money to the church in order to erase their sins?

(if you wanna read my opinion about the existance of god, and how SOME of us proved the fact he does not exist, and was clearly created as a survival technique, take 3-4 pages back tothis point and read on 😀 )

I don't condone the idea of the Catholic Church taking advantage of other people but how does that prove that God doesn't exist all that proves is that people are capable of committing sin. Hopefully we can find common ground on this at least.

6 Definitions of God

1.A guy who talked to some Jewish guys, some Christian guys, and some Islam guys, and accidentally caused more people to die than anyone else in human history. And people wonder why he doesn't talk much to us anymore.

2.The reason I passed math. Bless the lord! For I got a 65!

3.The universal scapegoat for forces yet to be explained, originating back to when man thought the wind was Satan farting. Uuhhhmmmm... God did it?

4.the most popular star in human history. loved, hated, or talked about by almost every person ever walked on earth. theist: 'i love god, i think he's cool.' atheist: 'god is a ridiculous idea, he doesn't even really exist.'

5.God, the omniscient, primordial and eternal who created man in his own image and therefore posseses a digestive system, sense organs, limbs and other attributes that would be useless to an immortal being. If God came first, what would he eat or walk upon? Why would he have those five senses if nothing to sense yet existed? And if he has 'always' been here, how long did he sit around doing nothing until he decided to invent the Universe? And why? And if he hadn't yet invented the universe, what exactly was he sitting on? Where is he going to exist if there is nothing to exist in? And what is wrong with the idea that we all just expire and disintegrate and rot? God help us.

6. The main character in the fiction work "The Bible." And God replied: I am Who Am. And Moses quickly corrected him saying that it should be I am Who Is. But God never was any good at grammar.

Life is tough......but it's tougher if you're stupid.
[img]http://img.userbars.pl/69/13603.gif[/img]

Quote from vinceasuma

6 Definitions of God

1.A guy who talked to some Jewish guys, some Christian guys, and some Islam guys, and accidentally caused more people to die than anyone else in human history. And people wonder why he doesn't talk much to us anymore.

2.The reason I passed math. Bless the lord! For I got a 65!

3.The universal scapegoat for forces yet to be explained, originating back to when man thought the wind was Satan farting. Uuhhhmmmm... God did it?

4.the most popular star in human history. loved, hated, or talked about by almost every person ever walked on earth. theist: 'i love god, i think he's cool.' atheist: 'god is a ridiculous idea, he doesn't even really exist.'

5.God, the omniscient, primordial and eternal who created man in his own image and therefore posseses a digestive system, sense organs, limbs and other attributes that would be useless to an immortal being. If God came first, what would he eat or walk upon? Why would he have those five senses if nothing to sense yet existed? And if he has 'always' been here, how long did he sit around doing nothing until he decided to invent the Universe? And why? And if he hadn't yet invented the universe, what exactly was he sitting on? Where is he going to exist if there is nothing to exist in? And what is wrong with the idea that we all just expire and disintegrate and rot? God help us.

6. The main character in the fiction work "The Bible." And God replied: I am Who Am. And Moses quickly corrected him saying that it should be I am Who Is. But God never was any good at grammar.

vince, i must correct you at one point.
the bible is not a fiction work, and god is not the main character in it.
the bible has no hero, and it describes the history events of that time from the point of view of many ppl. the bible has thousands of writers, and basically its a collection of several books, that have been lately collected into one volume. think "lord of the rings".
if you read the bible with a clear mind and screen the miracle/god/god spoke to me nonsense, youll realize that the bible holds a record of true events that have been misinter'ed by the writers. i personally believe that the writers simply thought that the real story is too boring and fixed it a little.
pm me if u wanna learn more. i studied the issue since elementary school.

ps: i dont know the version of the bible that you ever read, but the original first one, that was written in ancient hebrew never had such a thing as god talking about himself other then "i am the gods of israel" (notice that he refers to himself as "many" its a point i would like to investigate one day. if there is only one god, then how come he is "many"). basically grammer changes over the decades, and the only reason i can understand most of that ancient gibberish, was becouse, i was thought how to TRANSLATE it.

anyway, the bible is a really big issue that is discussed in many circles, and to your surprise ppl, not only by religious fanatics. that book is being researched as a historical book by archeologists and such. i can blab about it as much as i want and never get to the end.

but my point is:the bible is most definately not a fiction book. read the original version, not the one that was translated (edited) by the church.

@zubz- i liked that cute little poem in your signature but the last line must be corrected. not "LIKE eagles" we cannot miraculasly shapeshift. the original is that we are protected by god, and sumthing like he will send eagles to protect us, and the people will be able to hide on their wings. its supposed to be something like the whole humanity sitting on huge eagles back and flying to the sunset. think aladin.

reminder- i am totaly completly undoubtably atheist. i just have to fix the mistakes i see in such a sensetive thread.

the best security guard, EVER.

On which lot of god/s do you mean. The big 0 of it all, has come from sheep hearders out a dessert. Bless my for fathers, next lots pocks in wakes all who don't to them onto sticks. The last biggy they did gotso rave reviews about it they sold books, wrote opra's made movies about. Hey we in the west get holidays for it, Bless 'im for one hell of a way to spend easter.

Now we live in an enlightend age, all this freedom. No many poeple trying to kill you for not saying I beilive in your god.

But still there is one thing HE BEILVES IN YOU. 😲 😲

Oh no I was taken over by some bad age one of c***st. Me I am not a one those, one of these if I was a colour I'd orange (go find on the net, see ireland england). 😁 😁

love and peace