Quote from Arcane Azmadi

If there IS a god, an all-powerful being who allowed the world to fall into this miserable state, then fuck him. I'd sooner side with Lucifer.

That is, of course, assuming that god is benevolent to begin with... there are different kinds of belief.

@Rain1
I'm not sure if a statement is wrong if it is not proven. There is always the possibility that it is true. But I guess what you're arguing is how people are using certain words and statements. It's more of a language-thing. I think most people on this thread are debating the existence of God, rather than "believing in God."
(Also, I hope you mean "hypothesis" rather than "hypnosis" @.@)

@Arcane
One of the biggest philosophical arguments against the existence of God is the idea that this world is ridden with injustice and cruelty, and a benevolent God would not have let the world progress this far down.
But this argument also has a counterargument. Because this assumption asks of us a few questions. Why do we live on Earth, rather than Heaven, where all is "good"? Also IS God benevolent, assuming he exists? That's one of the counterarguments to this. A few theories have been that God wanted us to mature or grow up or even learn cruelty in order to appreciate "good."
These are not my arguments per se, but those of philosophers.
Also, I'm not quite sure you'd want to side with Lucifer 'cause uh... Doesn't he promote the "world falling into this miserable state"? As opposed to God, who apparently "allowed the world to fall into this miserable state"? But I suppose then the case would be choosing between someone who let bad things happen, or someone who did the bad things. @.@

[img]http://dragcave.net/image/GKln.gif[/img]

No. I don't believe in god. But I think its fine if people believe in it. I hate when other atheist go off and start bad mouthing believers. And i hate when believer's bad mouth atheist. I mean either way its none of the other person's concern. I'm atheist and if your religious that's awesome just don't try and force your religious belief's on me. 🙂

Quote from DemonCrow

No. I don't believe in god. But I think its fine if people believe in it. I hate when other atheist go off and start bad mouthing believers. And i hate when believer's bad mouth atheist. I mean either way its none of the other person's concern. I'm atheist and if your religious that's awesome just don't try and force your religious belief's on me. 🙂

agree......stating your own opinion is fine, but when people start to get all fucked up and use intellectual reasonings to force others to believe in their faith, then they're starting to get on my nerves.....no one has the right to call the other idiotic or dumb when discussing a subject with no definite proof on its existance or nonexistance.....if not scientific, then it's plainly your belief, and not everyone's belief is the same, so STOP CALLING EACH OTHER MORONIC OR UNDERMINING THEIR INTELLIGENCE [DARK_SAGE, THAT "KID" SHIT IS PISSING ME OFF.....GIVE A LITTLE RESPECT TO PEOPLE'S BELIEF, WILL YA?].....

i have no authority over your freedom of speech, but i'm sick of scrolling through pages and skimming through columns of philosophical statements just to read the minor population of genuine posters.....it's even funnier when people bring science in to discuss about their own belief.....science is composed of theories that've been proven by trials and results.....unless i missed out somekind of holygrail experiments happening lately to call upon god or whatever, SCIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR BELIEF........

now for my own opinion, i don't believe in the depending on any god to "rinse my sins" or whatever, except karma, since it's the only belief that actually relates to your self-conscience.....there isn't any definite powerful god overulling the world and watching over you, except for your own self-conscience, and for me, that's good enough...

i just have to say this about christianity, since i'm throughoutly annoyed about all the "goodness" of jesus that i'm forced to listen to on my parents' radio....whether jesus is fictional or not, the belief, that he is such a high and holy being for being tortured and crucifixed upon the cross to erase all of our mortals' sins, is a bit egocentric for me......a man (son of god/god/etc) can't ever do enough to erase humans' sins from the beginning of time....lots of people preach and talk on and on about how much jesus loves us, but seriously, i think the reason why people are so faithful in their religions is that because they don't believe in their own self-conscience and their ability to decide what's the right thing to do themselves......

The Deviant

i agree keeping this discussion decent and civil i sthe best thing to do especially dealing with a topic like this the opinions held by people usually are very important to them.
Anyway the fact is you cannot prove or disprove God through science because he is not a finite being
all you can do is observe the creation of God to find enough evidence to shore up your opinion.
Science deals with science
it is a misguided effort if you try to find God with a method invented by humans.

Actually if you think about it its kinda like gravity
it exists but you can't see it
science does not know what actually causes gravity but you can observe its existence by the way things react.
Or magnetism same thing
There are tons of natural phenomenon science can't explain so if you can't explain the creation of God how can you hope to research God or to explain his existence etc.

also Jesus is not considered holy because of how he died but rather how he was born and how he lived
Also the basic tenet of christianity is that all humans have fallen into sin so yes of course we all have a conscience but how many of us are disciplined enough to never commit a single act that is against Morality?

Oh my God, i leave the forums for 2 days and the subject explodes! In the end i gave up reading everything and just skipped to the end to see if the thread has been locked yet.

Just one note, Atheism tends to be correlated with education levels, but i would imagine that for the most part it has more to do with educated people just being richer and better off. And that atheists probably have a greater urge to study the world.

@ueberzombie,
jupp, germany isn't going to aknowlege armenian genocide and so on anytime soon.

Actually if you think about it its kinda like gravity
it exists but you can't see it
science does not know what actually causes gravity but you can observe its existence by the way things react.
Or magnetism same thing
There are tons of natural phenomenon science can't explain so if you can't explain the creation of God how can you hope to research God or to explain his existence etc.

well, it is very not so. You can test gravity by lifting an objekt and letting it fall over and over and over again. It doesn't matter who lifts the object, when or where. We know gravity exists, even if we are not sure how the force is created.

So for the example to truely apply one to one with god, things would have to be something similar to this.
Everytime a believer prays for food, food appears. This has to happen at least sometimes, and less often(at best never) if somebody is not praying. This also has to happen for different believers. Than we can know for sure, that there is a "something" that truely exists, even if we don't understand how the force is created.

We can ( and have been ) researching tons of things that we haven't understood, still don't understand, and so on. However we can not research GOD, because no experiment so far has been able to register him. And we are nowadays capable of measuring single electrons, and electron spins, and the speed of light to a really stunning precision.

i think the problem here is that almost everyone wants proof . thats why many flame wars happened..

back to topic: lemme ask this question first -
The colour of my keyboard is black. Is that true or false? Can you answer that? Can you be 100% sure n say yes/no? No! You dun hv any proof (unless u know me but pretend u dun) . You can't answer that, BUT u can BELIEVE/ NOT BELIEVE that. This applies to believing in God. we can't go back to the beginning of our planet to find the answer, but we can believe what we want to believe whether it's through our knowledge of the world or through influences. This is what i believe 🙂

O, n Dark_Sage, just to cause less confusion, we dun ask mods to help us. They join in themselves (i dunno if u knew this or not, but judgin from ur earlier post, i think u didn't kno..) If u already knew that, forget what i just wrote 🙂

Quote from Dark_Sage

Also, stop threatening me with your mods. Is the only way for you to win an internet argument for me to get banned? Sad. Guess you'll never learn how to use actual arguments if you keep relying on someone else to stop people smarter than you.

In class yesterday we were talking about the age old debate of Philosophy Vs. Religion and one of the ways that religions answers the question of blind faith (I really do agree with this) is by explaining that it's not blind faith God can't be experienced via reason. God can only be experienced via faith. There is no doubt in my mind that I never experienced God until I finally put my trust in the Cross. Since that day I have been blown away by how personal God is. We joke about prayers but man oh man when you start seeing answers to you prayers you suddenly feel very humbled. God is Love just imagine having that in your life day in day out. The most altruistic love ever, he's always looking out for you and hangs out with you and talks with you when no one else can understand you. AH..... have I mentioned how great it is to have God. That's why I love telling people about God, because there is no greater experience. 😀

hmmm....didn't bother reading all that I've missed (except for the oh-so-funny part...sorry guys 🤣 ) but I saw a comment made about god letting the world fall into the "miserable state" that it's in now.

The is quite a common point of argument for atheists and agnostics alike but heres the thing: What do you want him to do?
By saying that, it's like thinking we're in some sort of game world.

The state of the world is getting worser and worser by the minute!

God: HOLD IT!

God casts Seal of Protection on the world.The process of degeneration stops

God: Ok, now let the world be a good place again so that everyone can be happy.

God casts Healing Touch on the world. The world regains its full health.

....But seriously though...how 1337 would it be!? 🤣

continues his "world game" offline

[img]http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa229/azrinirza/makotoshinkai1_zpse3901c5a.gif[/img]
Everyday I'm tumblin'

Quote from Scyfon

Would be nice wouldn't it? But no. That's too simple and damn too lazy of the humans. It is because of humans that the world has gotten to the state that it is in. We make the mess, we clean it up ourselves. Relying on god to do that for us is like having him as a butler.
The human race is lazy. It's a known fact. It's also one of Lucifer's favorite side about us.

that's sooo true
haha, ur game world example reminds me of Greed Island in HxH 🤣

Quote from Lybi

@Rain1
I'm not sure if a statement is wrong if it is not proven. There is always the possibility that it is true.

well, there are three things here:

1/ The statement is wrong if it's not proven

2/ The statement is wrong until it's proven

3/ "There's always the possibility that it is true" doesn't make that statement right (refer to the #2)

If there are no strong evidences to back it up, the "possibility that it is true" remains possibility.

P.S: sorry about the wrong using word (& thank you for telling me). I also revised my answers in the previous post after re-reading carefully

"As long as we're seeing the same kind of musical vision, yeah, sure. But sometimes when things get hard, you balance out the pros and cons and say, am I being a wimp if I stay or am I being a wimp if I leave?" - D'arcy Wretzky

maybe i don't care

Quote from Rain1

1/ The statement is wrong if it's not proven

2/ The statement is wrong until it's proven

3/ "There's always the possibility that it is true" doesn't make that statement right (refer to the #2)

If there are no strong evidences to back it up, the "possibility that it is true" remains possibility.

I understand that a possibility does not make the statement right, but it also does not make the statement wrong. And I guess that's where we differ then, in your points 1 and 2 (which seem to be the same @.@) It's just I like to keep options open and try to consider other viewpoints o.o

[img]http://dragcave.net/image/GKln.gif[/img]

I answered maybe,

"prove god exists - i cannot"
"prove god does not exist - the fact there is no proof it exists is evidence in itself that it does exist"
now this in theory could be used in reverse
"prove god exists - the fact there is no proof god doesn't exists is evidence it exists"
the flaw in this is that we are proving existence here. For it to exist, it must have a proof of existence. What God is, is a theory. God is a theory because he is composed of a series of beliefs that are based on theoretical and hypothetical circumstances. To disprove this theory, one needs to find a case in which the theory is challenged and a contradiction occurs. At the moment, the most significant evidence that God does not exist is the contradictions between "Gods". Is God a single entity, is God many entities, is God male or female? Is God omniscient or does God need us to exist? The various contradictions throughout history, and the division of religion itself is based on the fact that God is UNDEFINED. Does God exist? The God that the "people" (various religions and religion members) belive in DOES NOT EXIST. This God is a symbol of faith, a faith that the weak need to believe in in order to survive. For others, God is a symbol in which they may justify murder or certain actions. This is why God in the mind of the religious does not exist.

On the other hand, is there an origin to life, or a creator that started all of life? Yes. Everything needs to start from somewhere. God isn't a person necessarily or a conscious being, but rather "it" is the coincidental series of events that may have come together to spark the creation of the universe or life itself. In terms of a creator, yes a creator exists, our existance is proof of this. If the creator is a person or is capable of thought? who knows.

With that said, this is why my decision is maybe. In terms of religion, God cannot exist. Because religion in itself is based on faith, the fact that so many different religions exist is evidence of God's own inexistance (just because it's your religion doesn't mean your right! It can only assume that since many religions exist, no true god exists, and no true religion exists). The fact that we were all created is evidence that god exists though (god in a sense of a creator), and we are proof of that.

its funny, dun u think?
that there are so many different ppl who got the idea of God(s) in different places n times (..not to offend anyone n sry of this bothers u) Yet, they probably never met each other b4 (im talkin about like the beginning of religion)