@Vudoo
I enjoyed your post and find it a good point that you bring up the definition of "God" and the difference in religions. But I found it a leap when you said this was evidence for the inexistence of God. I do agree that there is a problem in the wide range of the definition of God, however I don't believe that this is evidence for the inexistence. The general idea of "God" as an omniscient and omnipotent creator may or may not be true. The problem is, I guess, that this "God" may not be the "God" that the Christians imagined, or the Gods that the Greeks imagined, etc etc. But the different religions only mean that either one of religion is right in their interpretation of God, or more likely, all religions are wrong in their interpretation of God, oh and the last possibility that no "God" exists at all.
Also, I have the same viewpoint that "God", for humans, tend to (but not always) be a symbol used by either the weak for some hope of redemption, or the stronger to use to manipulate the masses. But again, I don't see how this may rule out the possibility of the existence of "God."
lol so after all this, I guess I mean to say I generally agree lol. You bring up important points that need to be addressed before we discuss the existence of a God (the definition of God) and I like your conclusion that God in the sense of religion cannot exist (although I disagree a bit and say that there is still a possibility) but I agree that our existence must have come from something somewhere, a "creator" if you will (whether or not the creator is a bunch of masses that compressed and exploded into the Big Bang or a real "God" who is conscious of his actions).

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Quote from Dragonfly

For a non-believer you sure have done your research and contemplation Israfel. 🙂

thank you very much ^^. i used to study various religions at a point, for the heck of it.

there was a discussion once about the conflict between religion and science. one person presented a view on how, for example, the genesis, which occured in 7 days, could have been 7 days of another scale. meaning, the thousands of years it took for the earth to form from the big bang and all the events that happened in between was the 7 days to god. its a rather interesting idea.

also, one of my friend, agnostic, feels that all the religions that exist can be tied together, that each religion is the representation and interpretation of the diety(s) above, and that they all correspond to the same thing. it was a pretty huge and complex theory, but i thought it made sense somewhat.

more food for thought ^^

"Rule No. 1 is, don't sweat the small stuff. Rule No. 2 is, it's all small stuff." - Robert Eliot, Writer

"Oh boy, here we go...again." - Israfel

I'm getting too old....

Quote from Lybi

Quote from Rain1

1/ The statement is wrong if it's not proven

2/ The statement is wrong until it's proven

3/ "There's always the possibility that it is true" doesn't make that statement right (refer to the #2)

If there are no strong evidences to back it up, the "possibility that it is true" remains possibility.

I understand that a possibility does not make the statement right, but it also does not make the statement wrong. And I guess that's where we differ then, in your points 1 and 2 (which seem to be the same @.@) It's just I like to keep options open and try to consider other viewpoints o.o

Unfortunately, when you provide a new idea, if you can't prove it, or the possibility of being able to prove it is low, then the statement REMAINS wrong.

Talk about possibility, there are tons of possibilities in the Universe. Do they all have the same chance of being true ? NO.

Why ? Because the possible levels of each of them are different

Again, we are talking about existence of something, so it's not about believing stuff here, but it's a science problem.Most people would agree that the possibility of proving that God exist is nearly 0.

So yes, you can (comfortably) say that God is possibly exist but the chance that God exist is nearly 0.

OK, then people may ask: "then why can't you disprove it?" Well, since the subject is very not likely to exist, then asking to disprove the existence of the subject (which is very unlikely to exist) is very likely useless.

When you don't have enough evidence to prove your statement, that statement remains invalid. And asking to disprove an invalid statement is invalid.

Doing that make a person less open-mind ? I don't think so. Actually it help that person to be an effective open-mind.

There are tons of possibility in this universe. If we human think like "Wow, I'm gonna do research ALL of them, since EVERYTHING is possible in this world", then we will soon be crazy before we can prove anything. However, since human using scientific method to filter and narrow down the possibilities, and that help us archive great things.

"As long as we're seeing the same kind of musical vision, yeah, sure. But sometimes when things get hard, you balance out the pros and cons and say, am I being a wimp if I stay or am I being a wimp if I leave?" - D'arcy Wretzky

Quote from Rain1

Unfortunately, when you provide a new idea, if you can't prove it, or the possibility of being able to prove it is low, then the statement REMAINS wrong.

Remains wrong to humans, which doesn't change the fact that something is true. Being unable to preform an experiment doesn't make something wrong, it's just unverifiable, so it's in a catstate (sort of). Since the people of the past didn't have microscopes cells didn't exist back then? Hardly.

Again, we are talking about existence of something, so it's not about believing stuff here, but it's a science problem.Most people would agree that the possibility of proving that God exist is nearly 0.

True.

So yes, you can (comfortably) say that God is possibly exist but the chance that God exist is nearly 0.

No you can't, there is no logical correlation between this statement and the above one. The possibility of proving with current technology == possibility of existing.

OK, then people may ask: "then why can't you disprove it?" Well, since the subject is very not likely to exist, then asking to disprove the existence of the subject (which is very unlikely to exist) is very likely useless.

Which doesn't answer the question, and your logic isn't sound as pointed out above. I like putting this another way: God has not shown to have any influence on the earth therefore the matter of his existence is pointless. You can preform experiments where one group is composed of theist and one group is composed of atheist from similar backgrounds and see who leads better lives, etc (of course a very large sample over a large period of time would be necessary, but I highly doubt there would be a difference). Why would we have to prove his existence if he doesn't have any influence on our lives?

When you don't have enough evidence to prove your statement, that statement remains invalid. And asking to disprove an invalid statement is invalid.

While similar to an above point I agree with this statement because there is a key difference. Maybe it's because wrong seems stronger and more absolute, more importantly invalid implies there being not enough proof to back up the statement. Actually it's surprising how many people don't understand this.

Doing that make a person less open-mind ? I don't think so. Actually it help that person to be an effective open-mind.

There are tons of possibility in this universe. If we human think like "Wow, I'm gonna do research ALL of them, since EVERYTHING is possible in this world", then we will soon be crazy before we can prove anything. However, since human using scientific method to filter and narrow down the possibilities, and that help us archive great things.

Being open minded hardly means be a complete moron, oh look there's the possiblity of a teacup floating in outer space I think we should go verify it's existence. No it means accepting and tolerating other ideologies and if the something is proven to accept it's existence. Which is why some theists aren't considered open minded they don't accept other possibilities.

Quote from Cerulean

Quote from DemonCrow

No. I don't believe in god. But I think its fine if people believe in it. I hate when other atheist go off and start bad mouthing believers. And i hate when believer's bad mouth atheist. I mean either way its none of the other person's concern. I'm atheist and if your religious that's awesome just don't try and force your religious belief's on me. 🙂

agree......stating your own opinion is fine, but when people start to get all fucked up and use intellectual reasonings to force others to believe in their faith, then they're starting to get on my nerves.....no one has the right to call the other idiotic or dumb when discussing a subject with no definite proof on its existance or nonexistance.....if not scientific, then it's plainly your belief, and not everyone's belief is the same, so STOP CALLING EACH OTHER MORONIC OR UNDERMINING THEIR INTELLIGENCE [DARK_SAGE, THAT "KID" SHIT IS PISSING ME OFF.....GIVE A LITTLE RESPECT TO PEOPLE'S BELIEF, WILL YA?].....

i have no authority over your freedom of speech, but i'm sick of scrolling through pages and skimming through columns of philosophical statements just to read the minor population of genuine posters.....it's even funnier when people bring science in to discuss about their own belief.....science is composed of theories that've been proven by trials and results.....unless i missed out somekind of holygrail experiments happening lately to call upon god or whatever, SCIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR BELIEF........

now for my own opinion, i don't believe in the depending on any god to "rinse my sins" or whatever, except karma, since it's the only belief that actually relates to your self-conscience.....there isn't any definite powerful god overulling the world and watching over you, except for your own self-conscience, and for me, that's good enough...

i just have to say this about christianity, since i'm throughoutly annoyed about all the "goodness" of jesus that i'm forced to listen to on my parents' radio....whether jesus is fictional or not, the belief, that he is such a high and holy being for being tortured and crucifixed upon the cross to erase all of our mortals' sins, is a bit egocentric for me......a man (son of god/god/etc) can't ever do enough to erase humans' sins from the beginning of time....lots of people preach and talk on and on about how much jesus loves us, but seriously, i think the reason why people are so faithful in their religions is that because they don't believe in their own self-conscience and their ability to decide what's the right thing to do themselves......

I myself am a Christian. I in and of myself have little or no conscience at all in and of myself short of my religion. I may not be a genius but if I ever thought that I could get away with doing something and I had no moral, religious reason not to do something I would be capable of very mean and bad things. Without the concept that by living in a way that God ascribes will bring Him joy I would be possibly worse than Hitler, at least in my own eyes currently. In and of myself I am a very, very evil, manipulative man. If you consider in this case that religion is my crutch I won't deny it. In fact even if my God does exist this still may be true. So make your decisions about me but not about Christians in general because of one twisted freak such as myself .

Quote from Scyfon

hmmm....didn't bother reading all that I've missed (except for the oh-so-funny part...sorry guys laugh ) but I saw a comment made about god letting the world fall into the "miserable state" that it's in now.

The is quite a common point of argument for atheists and agnostics alike but heres the thing: What do you want him to do?
By saying that, it's like thinking we're in some sort of game world.

The state of the world is getting worser and worser by the minute!

God: HOLD IT!

God casts Seal of Protection on the world.The process of degeneration stops

God: Ok, now let the world be a good place again so that everyone can be happy.

God casts Healing Touch on the world. The world regains its full health.

....But seriously though...how 1337 would it be!? laugh

continues his "world game" offline

Having played wow before as a paladin I truly enjoy your example, and you have a good point, but I have another: If man really goofed up in the beginning and God really was fair, as many try to make God out to be (He never claims to be fair only just in a judicial manner), then mankind would have never survived up to this point. Also think about it, if you forced everyone to absolutely adore you how would you feel about it? I know I would feel empty. God says that in the end that He will be the judge of all people individually, in one manner or another, and that nothing good or bad will be hidden from Him.

"Don't worry about the fine print. The soul consumption clause is never exorcised

I think it's fair that we have to worship him. We're not forced to btw. You can choose not to...and go to hell 😛
In my religion, we believe that everyone before being born made a promise to worship him. Then when we are born, we obviously forget it. People who are born in it are privileged in this matter of course.
God created us. It doesn't matter if we didn't ask for it. All that matters is that God did and now we get to enjoy life..somewhat. All you need to do, is at least worship God a little. God deserves this. and remember, it's optional. So you can't really say that it is forced. Even people in a religion can be a little nonreligious (is guilty) but still, they worship him in someway other than one.
And also, many choose to be in a religion and worship god even if they're a little agnostic. Something like.."If he doesn't exist, then so be it. If he does, then I'm safe" and I say good on them. 🤣

p.s- I had a pally...and he sucked 🙁 (coz I sucked at playing him..kinda). Warrior(arms/fury) FTW!

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Everyday I'm tumblin'

Quote from Scyfon

I think it's fair that we have to worship him. We're not forced to btw. You can choose not to...and go to hell 😛
In my religion, we believe that everyone before being born made a promise to worship him. Then when we are born, we obviously forget it. People who are born in it are privileged in this matter of course.
God created us. It doesn't matter if we didn't ask for it. All that matters is that God did and now we get to enjoy life..somewhat. All you need to do, is at least worship God a little. God deserves this. and remember, it's optional. So you can't really say that it is forced. Even people in a religion can be a little nonreligious (is guilty) but still, they worship him in someway other than one.
And also, many choose to be in a religion and worship god even if they're a little agnostic. Something like.."If he doesn't exist, then so be it. If he does, then I'm safe" and I say good on them. 🤣

p.s- I had a pally...and he sucked 🙁 (coz I sucked at playing him..kinda). Warrior(arms/fury) FTW!

On a side-note I was mining bot holy pally with uber gear so I didn't suck but to be honest pallies rely more on gear than alot of classes so I had different sets for different jobs (yes I did mine bot quite a bit).

Back to subject, I respect your beliefs but I am sorta confused as to what religion you belong to. It sounds familiar, but mostly because I have glanced at the theology of most main religions a bit in the past.

Also I believe that god created humans and gave them the choice between Him or self-destruction, and we chose self-destruction. I believe that God who being a just God needed (according to His just nature) to honor our choice, but that He also decided to give us a second chance since we no longer possessed the means to undo our wrongs no matter how much good we did, we never could change the fact that we defied God. He (according to my beliefs) decided to make that second chance open to us by sending his entirely blameless Son to take on Himself God's entire wrath against mankind. The key thing is that one must choose to accept His Son's sacrifice as the instrument of God's second chance to mankind and if we did not do so that we have sealed our doom.
I may have goofed and said that a bit off but to be honest I'm running off of 3 hours of sleep and I don't hardly even feel coherent.

"Don't worry about the fine print. The soul consumption clause is never exorcised

I'm thinking that a belief in God is not something to be proved by rational debate but rather something to be understood through experience. A testimony of what God has done in one's life would be far more beneficial to any discussion on His existence, or to support a belief in Him, than would a discussion on theology or scientific method. For example, if you believe in God, why? What has He done to convince you of His existence, or to give you a faint hope that He exists (for the fence-sitters)? Do you want to believe that He exists?

Quote from TwilightDrgn

I myself am a Christian. I in and of myself have little or no conscience at all in and of myself short of my religion. I may not be a genius but if I ever thought that I could get away with doing something and I had no moral, religious reason not to do something I would be capable of very mean and bad things. Without the concept that by living in a way that God ascribes will bring Him joy I would be possibly worse than Hitler, at least in my own eyes currently. In and of myself I am a very, very evil, manipulative man. If you consider in this case that religion is my crutch I won't deny it. In fact even if my God does exist this still may be true. So make your decisions about me but not about Christians in general because of one twisted freak such as myself .

i wasn't talking about you or christians in general.....i meant that anyone who worships a certain religion/god is a person who doesn't trust his own conscience....that's how god comes in, as an image to teach people morality and such.....if anyone gets offended by that, well, i can't offer an apology, because that was just my opinion

The Deviant

hmm, i suppose both cerulean and dragon have their points... especially the one about religion as an image for teaching morality and stuff...

now let me be a devil's advocate for a sec ^^

one huge point in religions is that god exists as a being that's above humans. if so, that means his presence is above our perception, and the humans' ways of gaining knowleges aren't enough to perceive him. however, faith plays the role that allows humans to perceive god without actually perceiving him, believing it him without sensing him. those who cannot achieve this is like the doubting john, who must see with his eyes before believing, a huge downfall of his.

if our senses cannot perceive god, we can't prove he exists. but just the same, we cannot prove he does not exist, because we can't sense his nonexistence.

okay, lemme go back to my blasphemous atheist self again XD

"Rule No. 1 is, don't sweat the small stuff. Rule No. 2 is, it's all small stuff." - Robert Eliot, Writer

"Oh boy, here we go...again." - Israfel

I'm getting too old....

Quote from Israfel

hmm, i suppose both cerulean and dragon have their points... especially the one about religion as an image for teaching morality and stuff...

now let me be a devil's advocate for a sec ^^

one huge point in religions is that god exists as a being that's above humans. if so, that means his presence is above our perception, and the humans' ways of gaining knowleges aren't enough to perceive him. however, faith plays the role that allows humans to perceive god without actually perceiving him, believing it him without sensing him. those who cannot achieve this is like the doubting john, who must see with his eyes before believing, a huge downfall of his.

if our senses cannot perceive god, we can't prove he exists. but just the same, we cannot prove he does not exist, because we can't sense his nonexistence.

okay, lemme go back to my blasphemous atheist self again XD

I have no problem about theorizing and all these things but being a bit of a stickler for details I must say that it is a "doubting Thomas" not John. Sorry but when it comes to something even used commonly in some areas as a saying I get a bit picky even when I shouldn't.

Also, I must publicly make note of how ridiculously open-minded some of the people in this forum are, even to the point of hypothetically taking the viewpoint as well as they can of beliefs they don't even hold. It might just be me but I find that as a bit of a rare surprise but a good one nonetheless.

"Don't worry about the fine print. The soul consumption clause is never exorcised

so wait...i'm ridiculous? >_> okay...did i do something bad?

"Rule No. 1 is, don't sweat the small stuff. Rule No. 2 is, it's all small stuff." - Robert Eliot, Writer

"Oh boy, here we go...again." - Israfel

I'm getting too old....

Quote from Israfel

so wait...i'm ridiculous? >_> okay...did i do something bad?

Just saying I've never spoken with so many people that don't mind discussing such a controversial topic as God in a civil, open-minded way.

"Don't worry about the fine print. The soul consumption clause is never exorcised

i believe in aliens

Quote from Israfel

so wait...i'm ridiculous? >_> okay...did i do something bad?

No - I think TwilightDrgn was making the point that they haven't experienced a situation before where those in the discussion were willing to set aside their own personal preference of belief, and reason from the opposite point of view.

Quote from TwilightDrgn

It might just be me but I find that as a bit of a rare surprise but a good one nonetheless. Notice TwilightDrgn says 'good' surprise.

Quote from Israfel

one huge point in religions is that god exists as a being that's above humans. if so, that means his presence is above our perception, and the humans' ways of gaining knowleges aren't enough to perceive him. however, faith plays the role that allows humans to perceive god without actually perceiving him, believing it him without sensing him. those who cannot achieve this is like the doubting john, who must see with his eyes before believing, a huge downfall of his.

if our senses cannot perceive god, we can't prove he exists. but just the same, we cannot prove he does not exist, because we can't sense his nonexistence.

I would argue that our senses can perceive God. I have experienced the sense of His Presence, I experience it every day. I may not have seen Him with my physical eyesight or touched Him with my hands, but those are not my only senses. Besides which, God the Father is spirit, and resides in heaven, in the spiritual realms, but His Spirit moves upon the earth, and a spiritual being would not have a physical form that can be touched. However, we have other senses with which to perceive a spiritual being. Although, if you were to subscribe to the philosophy of existentialism, I exist therefore I am, I am a product of accidental processes, then why would I have a spirit? If I have no spirit, I have no means to detect a spiritual God.

If I have no spirit then how would I be able to ask a question about spiritual matters. Therefore the very fact that I am asking a question of spirituality leads to the thought that I do indeed have a spirit. If I do have a spirit, where did that spirit come from? Did random chemical processes cause it to exist? Doesn't seem likely, because it doesn't seem to serve a purpose in a system governed by natural selection, and in order for it to be a process that suddenly appeared in one of my ancestors and was then carried forward by genetic inheritance, it would have to have been of benefit to that original ancestor and every other successor. Many many people throughout history have been persecuted and executed for their belief in God, that's not terribly conducive to survival. So it would seem reasonable that a spiritual being did in fact create my spiritual self, and that against all odds and worldly reason, my spirit continues to long for a relationship with the One Who created me.