I also keep hoping that Naruto is going to make a great and magnificent comeback from the abyss it has sunk itself into, but that is seemingly unlikely. very very unlikely. but who knows. Also @ Rezard People do complain that Bleach or One Piece fights aren't good enough, just not in a Naruto thread. And I'm not really following Bleach right now (its in a slump also imo), but in One Piece, although the fights may not be "tactical" (whatever you mean by that) Oda Eiichiro plays up the emotions of those involved MUCH better than Kishimoto. MUCH Better. So if the fights are not as appealing based on how badass all their moves are or whatever you mean by tactical, the fights do achieve much more for the plot, and character development. 😃

Can't read >_<

The simple fact is that people love to hate Naruto. It's a god damned comic! Get a life I'd say... Reading over 300 chapters of a series you don't like, keep on reading just to justify the reasons you don't like it, and then state those reasons as facts is... I don't even have a word for it...

And beyond that plothole argument there really is no (and I've seen many) good argument on why Naruto is bad. There can be reasons people don't like the characters, the plot, the arts, the action and so on. Thats acceptable, but the arguments that in most of the cases are produced by this holds no reasonable ground.

Some of the problems with Naruto, considering that it is a Shonen, are that not all the characters are easely read, the main character is not stereotypic, some characters are weak and/or annoying, some characters are seemingly useless, the plot is very loose and goes in an unknown direction, the art is far from standard manga, the action is unique (repeat: considering it is a shonen), there aren't two battles in Naruto which are the same, and too much is left to the readers imagenation.
Does this make it bad? No! It just don't make it appealing to Shonen readers expecting Shonen and/or readers of a "higher" level who're jused to stereotypical stories or not open minded, considering that Naruto is a Shonen after all. (phew... long sentence) But the fact that so many still likes it doesn't make it the greatest Shonen ever. It has many loose elements that it's just a wild card if you like it or not.

And someone please explain to me. DBZ and Naruto?? wtf?? Donn't come with the same standard arguments. To be honest they aren't good at all.

One last thing. People tend to judge Naruto from watching the anime. Don't do that! If thats the case judge the anime, not the manga. There aren't, IMHO, many good anime adaptations from manga. 😎

mwa ha ha ha...
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real quick, i more or less agree with what you said gjoerulv, however i know for myself, and maybe for others, the reason we keep reading Naruto even though we now think its not as good, is because of how amazing the first part was. To me the first part of Naruto was just downright amazing. And the second part, for reasons that have been stated earlier, has not done that for me. But i keep hoping it will, even though its unlikely. Also although i do still like Naruto, i think that there are enough valid arguments for not liking Naruto, and you outlined them. Plot, Characters, visuals etc are all perfectly valid. I don't think people should be Ostrazised because they didn't like Naruto. That's downright ridiculous.

And i wanted also to mention that although you said that you shouldnt judge naruto based solely on the anime, I and many of my friends (all of them actually) loved the naruto anime up until episode 135 when it went into fillers, which is where the time break happens.

And lastly,

Quote from gjoerulv

And someone please explain to me. DBZ and Naruto?? wtf?? Don't come with the same standard arguments. To be honest they aren't good at all. hehe although i like pointing that out for all Shonen manga and anime, usually I'm not being serious about it.(have you seen my thread http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=1601&page=1#post30795 ?)
yah that is usually a joke 9 times out of 10. 😀

Can't read >_<

Quote from UberZombie

real quick, i more or less agree with what you said gjoerulv, however i know for myself, and maybe for others, the reason we keep reading Naruto even though we now think its not as good, is because of how amazing the first part was. To me the first part of Naruto was just downright amazing. And the second part, for reasons that have been stated earlier, has not done that for me. But i keep hoping it will, even though its unlikely. Also although i do still like Naruto, i think that there are enough valid arguments for not liking Naruto, and you outlined them. Plot, Characters, visuals etc are all perfectly valid. I don't think people should be Ostrazised because they didn't like Naruto. That's downright ridiculous.

ditto, when you have a great beginning, even a average middle will look bad. The last few chapters have been good tho

lol I just realized I sounded angry in my last post lol. Wasn't my intension 😛 ...

Quote from UberZombie

Also although i do still like Naruto, i think that there are enough valid arguments for not liking Naruto, and you outlined them. Plot, Characters, visuals etc are all perfectly valid. I don't think people should be Ostrazised because they didn't like Naruto. That's downright ridiculous.

Yup that's it! You got my point. And the very same reasons can be added as reasons to like it. And I hope I didn't sound like I was ostracizeing people ><.

I guess another problem at this point is that there are so many elements involved to the story. The more elements the more expectations and imagination comes into the readers mind. And the more time goes by the more it sinks into the readers imagenation. And the more he/she dwells upon it, the more expectations they get to the story. Even to the point where they have a "perfect" "vision" of what it will become. And if that "vision" is ruined, of course they'll get disappointed. Reading more in 1 go avoids this to a certain degree I believe.

Yet another problem is that Naruto can give people an impression of being "deeeeeeeep". When it in realety not is that "deep". That can certainly ruin it for someone. Mainly it depends of your personal impression. This goes for many Shonen.

mwa ha ha ha...
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I couldn't agree with you more. HERE HERE!!! I have been lauding this work on this forum and site for months and have always wanted to scream at the sheer hatred that goes on from uninformed fans who are so jealous of Naruto's success in the US that they actually would rather laud DREK like Bleach and/or impressive yet 100% kid-intended (as in no serious consequences or philsophy) work called One Piece.

It is a shame because in this latest arc Kishimoto has proven why he is the master. Sasuke's battle, Akatsuki's leadership--the true depth of power that is the Madara Uchiha--these are all things that have been hinted at since the 1st few volumes and yet somehow was always laughed at as being 'silly', 'too many characters', 'kid-intended', 'too much sasuke', 'too much easy power for Naruto' -- just so much uninformed hatred from people who should not only be reading Naruto but be thanking Naruto for bringing more and more new manga fans into our little hobby. Is Naruto a masterpiece like Berserk or Monster or Death Note? ABSOLUTELY--it works for what it is...a Shonen Adventure manga.

One thing I marvel at is how the fans who criticize it, lower it's score on Baku-updates actually showcase a level of sheer lameness by not listing their own favorite manga (if you've got balls enough to come onto Naruto's board and decry it and it's fans..tell everyone what in the world you consider good manga so that we can give our opinions) and/or by actually posting on other forums for series they do like and not telling why-- (I defy anyone to give a truly cogent argument as to how Bleach/ One Piece are more mature, more epic and more interesting than Naruto...good reads or diversions..sure..but better in those categories than Naruto...I'd like to hear it).

The whole thing is unfortunate but it does make me believe that the critics who cannot properly qualify their arguments on here do indeed present themselves as haters and/or children who love the anonymity of the internet in allowing them to act out but never actually have to actually deal with the responses their words illicit.

As for the comments from I believe Shadows of Arcadia..while I completely disagree on your words about Part 2 (no characterization 😕 Sasuke/ Shikamaru have grown mentally and emotionally, new characters are introduced with their own development like Akatsuki members and the story is moving in different directions---u can't predict it but it's got it's own style now vs. 1 as Kishimoto moves to the next level of story he's trying to tell..that seems obvious to me arguing the story is all over the place is like complaining about Batman written by Grant Morrison rather than by Bob Kane--the author has changed to a degree and is now moving it in new directions..you may not understand it but that doesn't mean it lacks its' own merit). It's your opinion and I respect you wrote them out but they strike me very much like Part 1's criticism's used to be...a very much "Kishimoto's doing it all wrong". I don't know if you're a writer..I work with them everyday..in a work like Naruto..you have to take the whole thing into account..u're kind of attacking elements of its' storytelling which is strange considering it's a serialized work and clearly there is a point Kishimoto is getting too and clearly..we are not there yet (he just introduced Akastuki's leader and that's been what--- 3 years in making--it takes time dude!). If you have an idea of how the story should go..would love to hear it but these complaints of yours and others seem more like subjective preferences from people who I assume are not creators as opposed to reasoned critiques backed up by references. But, that's just me.

There was a post a few days ago that linked to a Narutofan website listing about Madara Uchiha, Naruto and the unbelivably complex foreshadowing that Kishimoto has laid down. I highly recommend everyone read that to get a TRUE nuanced view of Naruto's masterpiece quality.

-F

I am replying to the original post of this discussion. First off, I'm a huge fan of the show and manga. And I love the show (despite its flaws, and it has flaws like any show) but I have to admit. But, in the end, it is people like you, who ,unknowingly or not demean others opinions of the show and go on a huge rant about it, are the reason why people hate Naruto fans. Just because they give it bad scores, doesn’t mean there are not good scores being given. There are a lot of naru fans out there. Okay? And, just because they bag on it, and don’t give reasons, does not really, give you a good reason to write that rant, in the first place. In the future, if you wish to do something like this again. Use expository words, not persuasive. Just state your opinion, and don’t comment on the opinions of others to such a specific degree. Thank you and good night. TOBI IS A GOOD BOY!

Quote from Daedalus

I couldn't agree with you more. HERE HERE!!! I have been lauding this work on this forum and site for months and have always wanted to scream at the sheer hatred that goes on from uninformed fans who are so jealous of Naruto's success in the US that they actually would rather laud DREK like Bleach and/or impressive yet 100% kid-intended (as in no serious consequences or philsophy) work called One Piece.

It is a shame because in this latest arc Kishimoto has proven why he is the master. Sasuke's battle, Akatsuki's leadership--the true depth of power that is the Madara Uchiha--these are all things that have been hinted at since the 1st few volumes and yet somehow was always laughed at as being 'silly', 'too many characters', 'kid-intended', 'too much sasuke', 'too much easy power for Naruto' -- just so much uninformed hatred from people who should not only be reading Naruto but be thanking Naruto for bringing more and more new manga fans into our little hobby. Is Naruto a masterpiece like Berserk or Monster or Death Note? ABSOLUTELY--it works for what it is...a Shonen Adventure manga.

One thing I marvel at is how the fans who criticize it, lower it's score on Baku-updates actually showcase a level of sheer lameness by not listing their own favorite manga (if you've got balls enough to come onto Naruto's board and decry it and it's fans..tell everyone what in the world you consider good manga so that we can give our opinions) and/or by actually posting on other forums for series they do like and not telling why-- (I defy anyone to give a truly cogent argument as to how Bleach/ One Piece are more mature, more epic and more interesting than Naruto...good reads or diversions..sure..but better in those categories than Naruto...I'd like to hear it).

The whole thing is unfortunate but it does make me believe that the critics who cannot properly qualify their arguments on here do indeed present themselves as haters and/or children who love the anonymity of the internet in allowing them to act out but never actually have to actually deal with the responses their words illicit.

As for the comments from I believe Shadows of Arcadia..while I completely disagree on your words about Part 2 (no characterization 😕 Sasuke/ Shikamaru have grown mentally and emotionally, new characters are introduced with their own development like Akatsuki members and the story is moving in different directions---u can't predict it but it's got it's own style now vs. 1 as Kishimoto moves to the next level of story he's trying to tell..that seems obvious to me arguing the story is all over the place is like complaining about Batman written by Grant Morrison rather than by Bob Kane--the author has changed to a degree and is now moving it in new directions..you may not understand it but that doesn't mean it lacks its' own merit). It's your opinion and I respect you wrote them out but they strike me very much like Part 1's criticism's used to be...a very much "Kishimoto's doing it all wrong". I don't know if you're a writer..I work with them everyday..in a work like Naruto..you have to take the whole thing into account..u're kind of attacking elements of its' storytelling which is strange considering it's a serialized work and clearly there is a point Kishimoto is getting too and clearly..we are not there yet (he just introduced Akastuki's leader and that's been what--- 3 years in making--it takes time dude!). If you have an idea of how the story should go..would love to hear it but these complaints of yours and others seem more like subjective preferences from people who I assume are not creators as opposed to reasoned critiques backed up by references. But, that's just me.

There was a post a few days ago that linked to a Narutofan website listing about Madara Uchiha, Naruto and the unbelivably complex foreshadowing that Kishimoto has laid down. I highly recommend everyone read that to get a TRUE nuanced view of Naruto's masterpiece quality.

-F

No (I would have written more, but I'm tired and i think that about sums up my response. And you fail to include that the ** THEORY** about Uchiha Madara is at this time no more credible than what it is, a THEORY. Good Night ( I will try to elaborate on this tommorow when I'm not exausted.))

Can't read >_<

See...I completely disagree with you son. It's a shame too cuz I am loving INTELLIGENT discussion on any manga..I read (my list is public) Monster, Hellsing, Inubaka, Berserk, Bleach, Naruto, One Peace, Gantz, Black Cat, Sgt. Frog, Yakitate Japan, Kekkaishi (another masterpiece!!!!!) and more and so you cannot say I'm not diverse and open to discussion of any manga. The problem is that the fans of Naruto like myself are tired of watching fans denigrate and hate on a people or a work JUST BECAUSE THEY DISLIKE THE FANS. U're attacking us because we request high level views and discussions of a work that we love. I don't know you and don't know your age--but what world do you live in where people can dismiss you, your family, your efforts your anything and do so with the sage words of ..well it just sucks or I don't like it. I doubt you would be happy with that response..and that's how Naruto fans feel...it's not like they are going on Honey and Clover's board and attacking Naruto--they come to Naruto boards..call us Narutards and contribute to the discussion in absolutely zero ways. If you have something interesting and well-reasoned to say about the poor ness of Naruto..any true fan of manga will listen but it u just want to attack it and attack it's fans (which is funny I've always called those people haters and u proved my point-- since u think the fans are why people hate Naruto..what a silly and arrogant thing to suggest-- I know people who don't hate Republicans because they (republicans) support Bush but they do DISLIKE their (republicans) politics because they have proven to impact their lives negatively). Mastercyclonis..why not have a reasoned discussion about your dislike of Naruto and it's fans or better yet discuss what manga (and presumably fans) that you do like.

TY Uberzombie..I'm looking forward to your THEORY as well.

(you asked for us to list some of the series we liked so)I like Hajime no Ippo, Koroshiya Ichi, Berserk, Beck, Vagabond, Great Teacher Onizuka, to name a few. Go ahead and flame them if you want,* I'm *not going to try and insult your intelligence for not liking them.

Can't read >_<

UZ--I honestly don't know what u're talking about. Who did I say was attacking me personally? Awhile back when this discussion began where myself and others were being called Narutards all because we said Naruto was a masterpiece or some bs like that but I'm not sure how u're deriving 'me, myself' from me saying Naruto fans--I didn't start this thread. Likewise, there is no flame war here..discussion yes but no flame war. I will say that while I see alot of posts -- I'm not seeing the heartfelt discussion. The owner of this thread was attacked 3 posts down from his initial comment. Regardless, u're putting your own feelings onto me and that's not what this is about. If u have something meaningful to say to the conversation..post it.

I apparently misinterpreted something you said. forget it. and I'm sorry you don't find what I've said meaningful. In addition i would think it is obvious i'm putting my feelings or rather my opinions on you, thats what you do in a discussion. You told me yours, I'm telling you mine. I am seeing that, if not you, then the author of this post considers people who think Naruto is not the masterpiece he sees it as, as of inferior intelligence. Or at the least that their opinion is stupid, regardless of its validity (he considers all anti-Naruto sentiment as invalid, and it would seem you do as well.) He then goes on in detail about how their arguments are invalid with witty comebacks to "the story doesn't develop" such as

Quote from cogitoergosum

In reality you are the one who isn't going nowhere as you can´t get/enjoy the story. And then finishes it off with a, 'if you like one piece or bleach and not Naruto you have bad taste' in a I'm right, You're wrong kind of way. Quote from cogitoergosum

P.S: For those who give Naruto 4, 3, 2, 1 ratings and for example 10 to Bleach (which i somehow can understand despite the great overrate) and to One Piece (which i really can't understand) i say or you still have a lot to learn or as a matter of tastes (which like some people say, can't be discussed) we are going in totally different directions, and i'm sure i'm going in the right direction. All he did there is state his opinion (He loves Naruto) and thoroughly Ostricise and insult his fellow manga/anime fans who happen to not like Naruto for whatever reason. I was offended by this even though it may not even apply considering i like Naruto. But in all honestly and i quote myself , Quote from UberZombie

I don't think people should be Ostrazised because they didn't like Naruto. That's downright ridiculous. .Q.E.D

I hope you find more meaning in that than my previous posts because if you don't i doubt we are going to be able to communicate very effectively.

Can't read >_<

No need to be condescending UZ--for one thing because I'm not one to play that game of being insulted in a cute manner. You made your point 'meaningful' with me when u started it with the understanding (which I provided u with in my post) that I'm not the author of this thread and u spoke to the author's comments. That's between him and u. I won't try to speak for him since he seems rather capable on his own.

Let me educate you for your benefit..what I feel about the things you try to force me into:

1. I don't think people who don't think naruto is masterpiece are ignorant. Never said that. I think that if you cannot articulate why u dislike Naruto and or think it fails to be a masterpiece with anything approaching LOGIC, NUANCE AND REASON then it's not that u r not intelligent but u certainly r not serious about discussing your views of Naruto. Which is okay. Just don't expect to be taken seriously.

2. I do not consider Naruto criticisms to be invalid. I do respectfully ask for my benefit (if not everyone who is a true fan of manga) to be rewarded with some level of true discourse and not just 'hater filled' low ratings and comments about how Naruto 'sucks'.

3. Your point about people being ostracized is both enlightening and bizarre. How r u ostracized on a message board that is free from people that you do not actually no. I cannot prevent u from posting nor do I want to. I am personally asking for reasoned debate about a work called naruto that I consider a masterpiece. If you don't and u still like coming on to this board..then u'll have to explain to yourself what role you wish to play if you dislike a manga so much but are willing to continue to come to the messageboard. I cannot nor do not care to control that. Likewise, if Naruto is not a good work to you -- it's your opinion..I would ask you .. what is a good work to you? why? what qualities would you wish naruto had?

One thing I find amazing about debate amongst people is the feeling of entitlement they have. This is a board for Naruto fans and is open to all Naruto readers-- positive/ negative. It seems like some critics feel entitled to dislike the manga, dislike the fans and then get pissed when they demand that those same critics qualify their statements. If it's good for the pot it's good for the kettle no?

ok guys...CALM DOWN. dun want a flame war to start..

anyway, back to the topic.
i like naruto, but i don't think it's a true shonen ingenious work.
do i rrreeeaaallly hv to state why 😕 i just don't think it's THAT great..i've read manga that are better than Naruto of course in my opinion and what i like and dun like.(if i name them, i'm sure ppl will start arguin and stuff)
Different people hv different views, for example, well, in Japan, the biggest manga right now is One Piece. A year ago, it would hv been Death Note (because of live-action movies) For them, Naruto just isn't there yet (if you now what i mean). While in US, it may be different.