I did not mean to sound condescending towards you, i was merely irratated that you found what i had to say meaningless. I didn't mean to take it out on you. To move on to my opinions of you're statements for my benifit.

1. I'm glad to hear it, however Logic, Nuance and Reason are all things that are defined by the person who they belong to, so that really doesn't change much from the "I'm Right, You're Wrong" mentality I'm talking about. But as long as you're open minded with peoples criticisms even when you disagree with them, then i agree with you on this.

2. My source being the ratings on this site, i have seen all of maybe 3 ratings that have consisted of "naruto sux", all the other negative comments all having fairly ample reasonings behind them. In fact the only ones i see that only consist of 2 words and no real substance are the positive comments along the lines of "Naruto ownz 10/10" But that isn't really important to what I'm saying so I'll leave that alone. So yes I can Acknowledge what you are saying in this one also.

3. I am a bit taken aback by the Bizzare thing. I don't think its bizzare that if someone says, "i dont like naruto for the following reasons-etc" and someone responds with "you're wrong because those reasons are bad." that the person who didn't like Naruto would feel a bit ( i really can't think of another word than) ostracized. Also I don't know what you mean when you say a sense of entitlement, and i feel you are generalizing when you say that critics of Naruto get irritated when asked to qualify their statements because generally i think they do qualify their statements. And i don't follow at all the little bit about the teapot so you're probably going to have to explain that one.

(and @ lime: ITS TOO LATE, I'M ALL PISSED OFF >:-( i would buy some rxStress [img]http://www.bevnet.com/images/reviews/arizona_rx/arizona_rx-stress.gif[/img]but the discontinued it where i live T_T (and just to clarifythat, i was kidding im not that pissed 😀

Can't read >_<

Lime 123 that's condescending. I'm not in need of calming down (r u?) people can be passionate and state their opinion. One thing I tell my daughter is that a good discussion and debate no matter how intense never hurts anyone (maybe some people's pride) but it ALWAYS improves your own thoughts and experiences towards the topic. Read everyone's words and see if it provides u some enlightenment.

As for the idea of Naruto not being liked and u not having to explain it..that's up to u. U're wrong about One Piece. It's #1 in popularity in Japan and Bleach/ naruto battle for second. Naruto is #1 in most countries around the world by far. It is the most popular manga in Brazil, Germany, UK and US by far. Regardless, it would be good for u at some point maybe to qualify why u dislike Naruto or feel it is not ingenous.

actually i didn't think Lime was being condescending at all, if we stay calm its alot easier to not misinterpret things in the heat of the moment. (at the very least i appreciated the advice lime 😀 )
moving on, i agree with you lime that different people have different opinions, and i believe that one piece is one of the bigger if not biggest mangas in japan right now. also yah i agree with you that i like Naruto but i think that I've read better, and words like masterpiece or ingenious are a bit to extreme for how i received Naruto.

Can't read >_<

hahaha 🤣
Well, i guess when a manga's big, there's gotta be some critism and stuff..just remember, other mangas also hv critisms. They also hv these things happen to them..my friends, they hate bleach, they call it sucky, but the never read/watched it before. stuupid.

well, i guess it's ok to tell you why i dun think it is as great...
i'll tell u sth tho, my fav manga right now is either Slam Dunk, Vagabond, or haha, One Piece. I guess i dun quite like the angst in Naruto..and the things happen now..just dun add up, but i bet it will in the future..
the manga's i like, they're all for a reason.
Slam Dunk: got me soooo excited about the last game and i liked the character development.
Vagabond: realistic, dun hv names for every special sttack..
One piece:fun, pirates, fighting, emotions...haha all those..

To Daedalus: hmm.. from wht i can see..i think u liuke mangas with character developement, betrayals, angst, death...stuff like that, right? Well, i suggest you to read more Seinen mangas. Hope you would find more manga that you like 😀

If you don't understand y ppl dun like naruto, then don't understand..it's not like you hv to understand everything, right? it's just like you not really liking bleach or one piece as much as naruto, other ppl might not understand why...(btw, thx for tellin me wht the other countries' biggest manga is, haha, i didn't know)

To UZ: nice to no my post helped 😛

Quote from lime123

hahaha 🤣
Well, i guess when a manga's big, there's gotta be some critism and stuff..just remember, other mangas also hv critisms. They also hv these things happen to them..my friends, they hate bleach, they call it sucky, but the never read/watched it before. stuupid.

Thats prejudice man. I know what you mean. There are people who pre-judge things too much, and they don't like it after they've experienced it no matter how good it is. It's the same the other way 'round. Someone can like something no matter how bad it is simply 'cause they're a fan of it.

Quote from lime123

well, i guess it's ok to tell you why i dun think it is as great...
i'll tell u sth tho, my fav manga right now is either Slam Dunk, Vagabond, or haha, One Piece. I guess i dun quite like the angst in Naruto..and the things happen now..just dun add up, but i bet it will in the future..
the manga's i like, they're all for a reason.
Slam Dunk: got me soooo excited about the last game and i liked the character development.
Vagabond: realistic, dun hv names for every special sttack..
One piece:fun, pirates, fighting, emotions...haha all those..

To Daedalus: hmm.. from wht i can see..i think u liuke mangas with character developement, betrayals, angst, death...stuff like that, right? Well, i suggest you to read more Seinen mangas. Hope you would find more manga that you like 😀

I don't mean to flam you here in any way, but what is it in Naruto that don't add up? Did it add more up 200 chapters ago? Not in my eyes... Kishimoto avoids (what the fillers in the anime seemingly aimed for) 2 similar scenes, and 2 similar fights. Not that he perfectly manages it, but he does it very well. I believe some people grow tierd of that in one way or another. Perhaps 'cause there aren't many elements repeated who many people would love to see in another scene. I don't mean the puns and the humor. It's in fact always a good thing to repeat the same joke in another scene. It gets funnier that way.

Naruto is, from my point of view, a thing between Seinen and Shonen. That is in fact, imo, why it's easely critisized by many. You seems to like Inoue Takehiko works and OP. Your reasons for liking those are good and all, but most of those reasons could be reasons to like Naruto too. It has to be something 'bout the way it is presented in Naruto you don't like.

And Seinen btw is not all 'bout angst, death and betrayal. Where did you get that from?

Quote from lime123

If you don't understand y ppl dun like naruto, then don't understand..it's not like you hv to understand everything, right? it's just like you not really liking bleach or one piece as much as naruto, other ppl might not understand why...

You're right, it's not important to understand everything. Understanding why you like things or not is, however imo, important. And it's important to understand why people don't share your opinion. It's easier to accept each other if we do instead of blindly flam each other with rage. And society works best that way.

mwa ha ha ha...
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Quote from gjoerulv

Naruto is, from my point of view, a thing between Seinen and Shonen. That is in fact, imo, why it's easely critisized by many.

Exactly.

Quote from gjoerulv

And Seinen btw is not all 'bout angst, death and betrayal. Where did you get that from?

Atleast more seinen has that than in shounen, am i wrong??(i don't really know..)

Seinen is aimed for older youths and young men (at least 16+). Shonen go for young boys. You knew that... So that means anything goes for these genres as long as it's within the target range... 😎

mwa ha ha ha...
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@topicstarter

I read over 200 different manga series and I have my own manga update site where I keep track of them ( http://www.silverado.jp.pn ). All in all I know quite well if I series is worth the time or not and Naruto belongs to the latter kind.

Another thing you should know about Naruto is its audience: 8+.
Naruto isn't exactly for your (17 yo) reader group.

I recommend you to read some mature manga like Holograph, Homunculus or Eden. They aren't shonen, but most of the shonen are bad by definition anyway. (Iron rule: If it's bad, than it's either a shonen or hentai 🤣 ) You will be suprised how big the manga world is. You can find some of them on my homepage like stated above.

silv

Naruto has a broad audience.. It's a little childish, for the little children.. But there are also mature themes.. Like your older brother killing your whole family.. Don't tell me that was meant for kids.. >_>

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It's a kiddy manga with some but insignificant elements of a mature manga. There's nothing special about that topic which would require a M rating. If those reader like naruto, so be it. It's not up to us to decide whether they have taste or not. But you can't classify Naruto as mature manga while the main target group are still kids in elementary school. In other words you can't turn shit into gold. You can hype it and hope to make it even more popular as it already is. But you can't expect the mature audience to turn its opinion about Naruto. I like none of common shonen series, but in my opinion Naruto is far worse than Bleach or Naruto simply due to the slow character development and its boring story. They should just kill off all Akatsuki including Sasuke and Itachi. Make Naruto Hokaga and conquer all other countries. THAT would make an interesting plot and room for new character development, don't you think?

I don't say that you have to find Naruto great, but you must at least admit that it's good.. There's a reason why it's popular..

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Instead of raping this thread and quarreling with the 17yo, we should recommend some mature series, so that the topicstarter can extend his rating scale and no, it's no good as it is now. I completely lost interest in this series after the chuunin tournament.

You don't compare shounens to seinens.. They're on a different level.. >_> Just like you don't compare an exotic car to a normal person's car..

As a SHOUNEN, Naruto is great.. If it would be a Seinen, then yes I agree, it would suck.. But apparantly it's not..

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Quote from silverado

@topicstarter

I read over 200 different manga series and I have my own manga update site where I keep track of them ( http://www.silverado.jp.pn ). All in all I know quite well if I series is worth the time or not and Naruto belongs to the latter kind.

Another thing you should know about Naruto is its audience: 8+.
Naruto isn't exactly for your (17 yo) reader group.

I recommend you to read some mature manga like Holograph, Homunculus or Eden. They aren't shonen, but most of the shonen are bad by definition anyway. (Iron rule: If it's bad, than it's either a shonen or hentai 🤣 ) You will be suprised how big the manga world is. You can find some of them on my homepage like stated above.

silv

FYI I see men well into they're 30's reading Shonen Jump's weekly release on the train here all the time. Shonen is a VERY arbitrary age range but the main demographic in Japan is the 15-25 range.

[img]http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj56/Spanky858/Avis/1226195917014-1.jpg[/img]

It sounds like you're saying: "Yes, Naruto sucks, but it's the best of its sucky kind." If that's your logic, then you just admitted defeat.