Quote from jrdragon2003

i believe Lelouch is dead, even if we could bring out all this evidence about Geass memory transfers and such, last shot during the ending credits says it all. it was C.C alone staring at a castle. i think the saying goes a "picture is worth a thousand words" in this instance. 🤣 plus i don't buy that memory transfer thing he did with Nunnally either, since C.C's case and Charles case when they got immortality, they had a Geass ability. and it was transferred to them from someone else who had a Geass ability. i don't recall Nunnally having one on her.

The last shot is a piece of CLAMP artwork- the CLAMP artworks in the credits literally have no meaning. They draw what they like "because it looks pretty" and are given complete freedom to do so (seriously, they've said so explicitly). There's no symbolism in any of the pieces, they even removed the "shirley as an angel" picture from the first sequence because they felt it was actually related to events in the show.

The memory transfer thing is the result of an immortal being exposed to the World of C, it has nothing to do with the target having any sort of geass ability. It's the same thing as in episode (11? I think) in season 1 when CC exposes herself in order to force Suzaku to become lost in his memories, and Lelouch suddenly touches her from behind and catches glimpses of her past. In CG, immortals still "die", they just revive afterward, so in that moment he was exposed in the same way.

Even if that wasn't how it worked, how the hell do you explain her seeing and comprehending the images? Or the geass noise playing in the background when she does so? -_-;;.

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Quote from Crenshinibon

The last shot is a piece of CLAMP artwork- the CLAMP artworks in the credits literally have no meaning. They draw what they like "because it looks pretty" and are given complete freedom to do so (seriously, they've said so explicitly). There's no symbolism in any of the pieces, they even removed the "shirley as an angel" picture from the first sequence because they felt it was actually related to events in the show.

The memory transfer thing is the result of an immortal being exposed to the World of C, it has nothing to do with the target having any sort of geass ability. It's the same thing as in episode (11? I think) in season 1 when CC exposes herself in order to force Suzaku to become lost in his memories, and Lelouch suddenly touches her from behind and catches glimpses of her past. In CG, immortals still "die", they just revive afterward, so in that moment he was exposed in the same way.

Even if that wasn't how it worked, how the hell do you explain her seeing and comprehending the images? Or the geass noise playing in the background when she does so? -_-;;.

if that's the case then fine. but i still don't buy this transfer thing at all. even in your argument it's still notable that the only immortal transfers seen made have been between people granted with the power of Geass. and not to others who have just been effected by it. Charles and V.V, C.C and that Nun. those are the only ones to truly do the transfer that we've seen. i don't think it's ever been shown that it would work for people with out it. C.C and V.V have the code so it might be possible to transfer memories if they wanted. but i don't it extends all the way towards someone like Lelouch, Charles, or even Marianne.
honestly i'd like to give you some solid answer, but that would be picking at straws. just like what everyone's trying to do when trying to find a solid reason to say he's alive.

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Quote from jrdragon2003

Quote from Crenshinibon

The last shot is a piece of CLAMP artwork- the CLAMP artworks in the credits literally have no meaning. They draw what they like "because it looks pretty" and are given complete freedom to do so (seriously, they've said so explicitly). There's no symbolism in any of the pieces, they even removed the "shirley as an angel" picture from the first sequence because they felt it was actually related to events in the show.

The memory transfer thing is the result of an immortal being exposed to the World of C, it has nothing to do with the target having any sort of geass ability. It's the same thing as in episode (11? I think) in season 1 when CC exposes herself in order to force Suzaku to become lost in his memories, and Lelouch suddenly touches her from behind and catches glimpses of her past. In CG, immortals still "die", they just revive afterward, so in that moment he was exposed in the same way.

Even if that wasn't how it worked, how the hell do you explain her seeing and comprehending the images? Or the geass noise playing in the background when she does so? -_-;;.

if that's the case then fine. but i still don't buy this transfer thing at all. even in your argument it's still notable that the only immortal transfers seen made have been between people granted with the power of Geass. and not to others who have just been effected by it. Charles and V.V, C.C and that Nun. those are the only ones to truly do the transfer that we've seen. i don't think it's ever been shown that it would work for people with out it. C.C and V.V have the code so it might be possible to transfer memories if they wanted. but i don't it extends all the way towards someone like Lelouch, Charles, or even Marianne.
honestly i'd like to give you some solid answer, but that would be picking at straws. just like what everyone's trying to do when trying to find a solid reason to say he's alive.

Unless I read your statement wrong, your basically saying memory transfer is impossible without a code...

So like Crensh was saying...the memory transfer was then possible BECAUSE Lelouch was immortal...

Your contradicting yourself...

I would mention Suzaku, but given that we don't know what his connection with geass was supposed to be, that probably shouldn't be used as an answer in an attempt to satisfy continuity. I. however, am still satisfied with the fact that it's possible simply because you cannot provide a logical explanation as to why Nunnally can see and process the images, hence that event confirming it's potential. I would agree that a lot of the arguments made to justify his living can be called just grasping at straws (the whole "charles code transfer" and "RR" thing among them, to be sure), but when you actually have an event that no one is able to logically eliminate I wouldn't call it grasping, but maybe that's just me.

To be perfectly honest, as far as deaths go I thought it was excellently done and poetic. I would be satisfied with that as an ending, but from a logical standpoint his death actually has an unexplainable hole, so I'm forced to go with the survival route, which I don't mind much either.

edit: @blak: He's trying to say that memory transfers have only been proven to be possible between a contractor and their contractee, I think. It happens with Suzaku at the end of 22, but his role was changed so we can't really use that reliably.

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Quote from Crenshinibon

I would mention Suzaku, but given that we don't know what his connection with geass was supposed to be, that probably shouldn't be used as an answer in an attempt to satisfy continuity. I. however, am still satisfied with the fact that it's possible simply because you cannot provide a logical explanation as to why Nunnally can see and process the images, hence that event confirming it's potential. I would agree that a lot of the arguments made to justify his living can be called just grasping at straws (the whole "charles code transfer" and "RR" thing among them, to be sure), but when you actually have an event that no one is able to logically eliminate I wouldn't call it grasping, but maybe that's just me.

To be perfectly honest, as far as deaths go I thought it was excellently done and poetic. I would be satisfied with that as an ending, but from a logical standpoint his death actually has an unexplainable hole, so I'm forced to go with the survival route, which I don't mind much either.

edit: @blak: He's trying to say that memory transfers have only been proven to be possible between a contractor and their contractee, I think. It happens with Suzaku at the end of 22, but his role was changed so we can't really use that reliably.

that's one of the main reasons why i'm trying to deny the thought of his survival. cause it kind of kills the poetic end he had. and despite what people might say it was actually a very touching death, even if you don't necessarily like him. it was still a fine way to go. claims of his living make it seem like a cheap cop out, and put on the same level as one of those Light "just as planned!" pics.
and thanks for putting it in better words, the point i was trying to get across. your an excellent wordsmith there. looks like i have a long way to go if i can't put something as simple as that into understandable terms. 😛

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Haha, well I can definitely understand how it cheapens it, but I like to think of it as him having two duties he had left to fulfill- his duty as a "hero of justice" as Lelouch vi Britannia, and his promise to make CC smile. His identity died, and he can never see Nunnally or Suzaku again, so it's at least still tragic, but CC still gets her happy ending, which given the tone of the rest of season 2 I'm more happy with. If the story was bring told in the same fashion as season 1, with more of an emphasis on world events, then him dying would definitely have been a stronger ending, and even now I'm not totally sure which way I like more... but I digress...

The point is just that I understand where you're coming from, I think.

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I see...but then there's Suzaku when he was given shock images by C.C. right? My theory is that people with the code can willingly show their memories to others not necessarily related to geass. In Suzaku's case, C.C. did not know what he was seeing because it was his memories she was making him see...Unless there was a statement that Suzuaku indeed was related to geass in some way...

Quote from blakraven66

I see...but then there's Suzaku when he was given shock images by C.C. right? My theory is that people with the code can willingly show their memories to others not necessarily related to geass. In Suzaku's case, C.C. did not know what he was seeing because it was his memories she was making him see...Unless there was a statement that Suzuaku indeed was related to geass in some way...

Originally he had may have had some sort of connection. It was mentioned that his role was "changed" but we don't know how or in what way. It's a better example when he touches CC right before Euphy gets ordered to massacre the Japanese though, since that one was unintentional. Generally speaking, all continuity with Suzaku is pretty shaky, so although those events do happen, it's entirely possible that there was some sort of external influence, but we'll never actually know.

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So because of a lack of evidence we can't prove or disprove anything?

Quote from blakraven66

So because of a lack of evidence we can't prove or disprove anything?

Basically. The only exception is the fact that no one has been able to provide a logical explanation for why Nunnally can see and comprehend the images other than the two times CC does it inadvertently. The argument used against it here is entirely conjecture, there's actually no evidence supporting it in either direction (if Suzaku's occurrence without outside influence can be considered canon then the argument is null, but as it is...). Until such time that someone can actually provide a feasible argument without holes, it remains unchallenged evidence in my eyes.

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i think that unfortunately it will be a long time till we get someone to do that. cause not a lot of people are willing to disprove the "good end" idea behind that particular scene. aside from that it's kind inexplicable in itself too. out of anything i think that it was a huge anomaly put in just for this purpose.

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suzaku = contractee
lelouch = contractor

lelouch = contractee
C.C. = contractor

and so on...?

nunally = contractee
Charles = contractor

Maybe geass can evolve into codes just like how Charles got his or C.C. got hers and to die is the only way to activate it. So I think lelouch is stil alive. Maybe Nunally has the code as well?

Quote from jimmyx

suzaku = contractee
lelouch = contractor

lelouch = contractee
C.C. = contractor

and so on...?

nunally = contractee
Charles = contractor

Maybe geass can evolve into codes just like how Charles got his or C.C. got hers and to die is the only way to activate it. So I think lelouch is stil alive. Maybe Nunally has the code as well?

Only the Lelouch/CC one has any sort of basis in reality. Nunnally has no geass, otherwise she would've used it when she was trying to stop Lelouch, or was imprisoned. Suzaku likewise has no geass, because even if Lelouch was a contractor, there's no reason for him to give him one.

The second part is a possibility, but is entirely conjecture.

@jr: The funny thing is that there really isn't an argument against it in the Geass mythology. It's not like you're the only person who thinks he's dead- there are tons of people, yet the only even remotely coherent argument I've seen against it is that Nunnally has some sort of magical power to "see into people's souls and read their thoughts", which is really just as absurd as it sounds (not to mention that there's another rational explanation for her "lie detector" ability). Unless Taniguchi or Okouchi explicitly says that something else happened or that Lelouch is dead (which you can bet that they won't) you're probably never going to have something to oppose it. However, he's not explicitly stated to be alive either, so even if the facts are against you, you're entitled to be able to interpret any ending you want.

And for the record- things really aren't just "put in to be a huge anomaly" unless they have an additional rational explanation. Obviously this was intentional, since it was in the script.

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Quote from jimmyx

Maybe geass can evolve into codes just like how Charles got his or C.C. got hers and to die is the only way to activate it. So I think lelouch is stil alive.

Charles got his from V.V.
C.C. got hers from the Nun

Maybe Nunally has the code as well?

Where did that come from? 🤢

ekm guys lelouch can't be alive. He never was in the first place. It's a fictional story. j/k
I've just wanted to say that I believe that it was an open ending. If you think that he paid enough for his crimes by making his name -the worst tyrant in history and he can now(when he is not bearing world fate on his arms) live a happy life (milking cows, harvesting grain, playing on hay with CC etc) than so it was. If you think farm is not ok for Lelouch than lets say he gave his life to realize his dream and repent for his sins.