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New Poll - Honorifics
This week's poll is by MewMan. I'm really surprised that we never did an honorifics poll in the 3-ish years we've been doing weekly site polls. No discussion forum for this one.
You can submit poll ideas here (and try to keep them manga/anime-related):
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903
Previous Poll Results
Question: Do you compare scanlations to the official published releases?
Choices:
All the time, when I can! - votes: 1160 (10.2%)
Sometimes, when I feel like it - votes: 3008 (26.5%)
No, I don't care about comparing - votes: 3478 (30.6%)
No, I'd only read the chapter / volume once - votes: 634 (5.6%)
No, I don't have any official volumes to compare them to - votes: 3090 (27.2%)
There were 11370 total votes.
The poll ended: July 2nd 2011
Opinions are all over the place on this one...
You can submit poll ideas here (and try to keep them manga/anime-related):
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903
Previous Poll Results
Question: Do you compare scanlations to the official published releases?
Choices:
All the time, when I can! - votes: 1160 (10.2%)
Sometimes, when I feel like it - votes: 3008 (26.5%)
No, I don't care about comparing - votes: 3478 (30.6%)
No, I'd only read the chapter / volume once - votes: 634 (5.6%)
No, I don't have any official volumes to compare them to - votes: 3090 (27.2%)
There were 11370 total votes.
The poll ended: July 2nd 2011
Opinions are all over the place on this one...
Comments (limited to first 100 replies)
» Pikapu on July 2nd, 2011, 11:03am
I don't care... I'm indifferent..... but there is no such option. =_______=;;
» SinsI on July 2nd, 2011, 11:32am
They should never be used in subbed anime - viewers aren't deaf and less text to read and hide the art is a good thing - but they can add flavor to manga scanlations.
» That2ndGuy on July 9th, 2011, 12:10pm
Unless, they are deaf and need subtitles... 
» m64 on July 2nd, 2011, 11:59am
they give you an insight to how the relationship is between the 2 characters... so ALWAYS!
» silverado on July 2nd, 2011, 3:14pm
Useless adaptation that is used by unskilled translators. I still hope that one day those fanboys and fangirls realize how ridiculous their translation sound with honorifics.
» m64 on July 2nd, 2011, 6:14pm
different cultures have different ways of doing things and in their culture they use honorifics... who are you to say that it's useless?
it has NOTHING to do with being a fanboy/girl... it has EVERYTHING to do with interactions and subtleties between characters... but you find that meaningless?
you read their "entertainment", for lack of a better word, and criticize it? why even bother reading it then?
to me that was a useless and arrogant comment you made...
it has NOTHING to do with being a fanboy/girl... it has EVERYTHING to do with interactions and subtleties between characters... but you find that meaningless?
you read their "entertainment", for lack of a better word, and criticize it? why even bother reading it then?
to me that was a useless and arrogant comment you made...
» MrEngenious on July 2nd, 2011, 7:56pm
The Japanese culture makes use of honorifics, not the Western one. Japanese doesn't tend to have as many phrases that are as specific to different things like English does.
It does have something to do with someone wanting things to be more literal in their translations (erroneously called fanboy/fangirl). If the translator is entirely unable to properly translate (which many would call localizing, which it is) every nuance into the target language without having to use transliterated Japanese (excluding the obvious made up stuff or culturally divided things), they are a bad translator. With all the synonyms and different combinations of words we can make with English, we should be able to get close to, if not exactly, the same feeling the mangaka was intending. If you need a -san, -chan, etc. to signify many of these feelings, then I really think you should brush up on your ability to communicate with the English language.
"you read their 'entertainment', for lack of a better word, and criticize it? why even bother reading it then?"
We're not allowed to criticize entertainment now? Guess all reviewers for books, movies, video games, etc. are all assholes then.
Seriously, one gives (proper) criticism so that, in their opinion, the subject media can potentially be improved for better entertainment next time, to encourage/discourage others into getting subject media, or whatever else that slips my mind right now.
I will agree that the namecalling was unnecessary (well, it's NEVER necessary) and hurt the message he was trying to get out.
It does have something to do with someone wanting things to be more literal in their translations (erroneously called fanboy/fangirl). If the translator is entirely unable to properly translate (which many would call localizing, which it is) every nuance into the target language without having to use transliterated Japanese (excluding the obvious made up stuff or culturally divided things), they are a bad translator. With all the synonyms and different combinations of words we can make with English, we should be able to get close to, if not exactly, the same feeling the mangaka was intending. If you need a -san, -chan, etc. to signify many of these feelings, then I really think you should brush up on your ability to communicate with the English language.
"you read their 'entertainment', for lack of a better word, and criticize it? why even bother reading it then?"
We're not allowed to criticize entertainment now? Guess all reviewers for books, movies, video games, etc. are all assholes then.
Seriously, one gives (proper) criticism so that, in their opinion, the subject media can potentially be improved for better entertainment next time, to encourage/discourage others into getting subject media, or whatever else that slips my mind right now.
I will agree that the namecalling was unnecessary (well, it's NEVER necessary) and hurt the message he was trying to get out.
» hollabaloo on July 2nd, 2011, 8:33pm
THIS.
» m64 on July 2nd, 2011, 8:42pm
i'll agree constructive criticism is one thing... but his clearly wasn't constructive... which is why i said what i did.
so if the tl'er can't tl it to english without using "transliterated japanese" they are bad? you do realize A LOT of things can't be properly tl'ed into english right? not just japanese but korean/chinese as well. that would mean most, if not all, tl'ers are bad by your reasoning...
i see it this way... if you are a manga reader there are certain things you HAVE to know... with honorifics being one of them... if you refuse to learn it that's your problem not the tl'ers...
i'll say this one more time... honorifics show the relationships between characters and subtleties that DO NOT come across if tl'ed into english.
so if the tl'er can't tl it to english without using "transliterated japanese" they are bad? you do realize A LOT of things can't be properly tl'ed into english right? not just japanese but korean/chinese as well. that would mean most, if not all, tl'ers are bad by your reasoning...
i see it this way... if you are a manga reader there are certain things you HAVE to know... with honorifics being one of them... if you refuse to learn it that's your problem not the tl'ers...
i'll say this one more time... honorifics show the relationships between characters and subtleties that DO NOT come across if tl'ed into english.
» MrEngenious on July 2nd, 2011, 10:54pm
I work with a translator in my group who is a strong supporter of removing honorifics from translations. He's translated manga, games, and our occasional random requests. I, being an editor and not a translator, would never call a translation bad without help from an actual translator.
So why would I call those who stick with honorifics through and through saying that they utterly necessary bad when I'm not a translator?
Because I know it's possible to not need to use honorifics, thanks to him. I've played the games with the translation he produced, it was wonderful, easy to understand, and it wasn't full of -sans, -kuns, -chans, -donos. I didn't notice when things were possible "localized". The main character acted like a derp to this guy he couldn't handle, like a ditz to the girl he liked, and other forms of awkward to the others and it was well understood.
He helped me develop and stand by this viewpoint, without us really talking about it 1-to-1. All I had to do was read his translations and compare it with the manga standard translations of today.
I will admit that we kinda force him to use honorifics in our translations because it's the "standard" and we'd probably have this weird backlash that we don't want if we decide to "localize everything." I do hope that we can do this in the future, however, in one way or another.
And I did admit that some things can't possibly be translated into English (as I noted, things stemming from our cultural divides). But those are the exceptions, not the rule.
If I was unable to change your mind in even the slightest, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I have not seen one bit of evidence that definitely makes me question my viewpoint as it has developed to today.
So why would I call those who stick with honorifics through and through saying that they utterly necessary bad when I'm not a translator?
Because I know it's possible to not need to use honorifics, thanks to him. I've played the games with the translation he produced, it was wonderful, easy to understand, and it wasn't full of -sans, -kuns, -chans, -donos. I didn't notice when things were possible "localized". The main character acted like a derp to this guy he couldn't handle, like a ditz to the girl he liked, and other forms of awkward to the others and it was well understood.
He helped me develop and stand by this viewpoint, without us really talking about it 1-to-1. All I had to do was read his translations and compare it with the manga standard translations of today.
I will admit that we kinda force him to use honorifics in our translations because it's the "standard" and we'd probably have this weird backlash that we don't want if we decide to "localize everything." I do hope that we can do this in the future, however, in one way or another.
And I did admit that some things can't possibly be translated into English (as I noted, things stemming from our cultural divides). But those are the exceptions, not the rule.
If I was unable to change your mind in even the slightest, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I have not seen one bit of evidence that definitely makes me question my viewpoint as it has developed to today.
» MrEngenious on July 2nd, 2011, 10:58pm
I forgot to mention that I'm actually okay with honorifics being in (just slightly annoyed when I expect something better). I prefer removing them, as they set a bad precedent on the standards of translation, in my opinion. I get quite irked when publishers in the West produce shoddy results at the overwhelming demand of the "fans" and how they think the works should be.
Everything could be so much better, if only we could start breaking from the current mold we're in today.
Everything could be so much better, if only we could start breaking from the current mold we're in today.
» silverado on July 3rd, 2011, 9:55am
I've been in the scanlation scene for many years and while the image quality of manga has improved considerably through better technology and software, the quality of translation has not. In the old days, good scanlation groups would never sacrifice flow and contextual understanding for artificial accuracy through honorifics. Only an amateur in translation would create a text where the reader is required to look up Japanese honorifics he / she was supposed to translate. If you can't show the relationship between two people through your own words without relying on honorifics, it just mean that you have a long way to go before becoming a decent translator.
I agree that romance, especially shojo manga series rely heavily on honorifics, but there are many ways to express those feelings subtly in proper English. If not, how have you expressed yourself all these years without Japanese honorifics?
English translation can be a tough job, especially if one specializes in seinen series with complex technical and scientific descriptions and a multitude of complexity in personal relationships and organizations. Keeping honorifics would be ridiculous and make reading a pain instead of a pleasant experience.
I urge everyone involved in translation to take the words of this professional Japanese translator into heart. Remember it, feel it, hear it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0
I agree that romance, especially shojo manga series rely heavily on honorifics, but there are many ways to express those feelings subtly in proper English. If not, how have you expressed yourself all these years without Japanese honorifics?
English translation can be a tough job, especially if one specializes in seinen series with complex technical and scientific descriptions and a multitude of complexity in personal relationships and organizations. Keeping honorifics would be ridiculous and make reading a pain instead of a pleasant experience.
I urge everyone involved in translation to take the words of this professional Japanese translator into heart. Remember it, feel it, hear it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0
» Keilis on July 2nd, 2011, 3:21pm
Don't believe we need them. Pretty much all of them are easily translated into English through manners alone, and it definitely would translate better if they used English terms as replacements (such as Lord/Lady, Mr./Mrs., etc.). For ones like -chan and -kun, they wouldn't have to be used. I feel like many (not all) translators that stick to honourifics depend on them too much, and forget to translate the mannerisms of the character speaking. That's just my opinion, though.
» silent killer on July 2nd, 2011, 6:11pm
they shouldn't be necessary, but alot of translators, pros and amatuers alike that if they translate said honorific makes the dialogue wierd and not flow right. In cases like that it would have been better to just leave them out completely. Iunderstand they were aiming for better localization, but noone in the west would speak that way. Ever. Similar to what DiC did with Cardcaptors. They are very clearly in Tokyo, but they never once say they are in tokyo and begin referring to it as some nonexistant city in who knows where
» ink junkie on July 2nd, 2011, 6:44pm
In manga only, though. If it's about English-dubbed anime then definitely leave out the honorifics.
» Turbophoenix on July 2nd, 2011, 7:23pm
Yep. I find it weird when I read a series without them. There are valid arguments for and against though.
» Axlish on July 2nd, 2011, 9:38pm
Mainly out of habit. I'm so used to seeing it, so it's too weird without it. But it does also feel weird if the series takes place in some not-Japanese place. Like if it's clearly supposed to be based in another country, then obviously they should not use honorifics... and it just looks silly.
» GoFigure746 on July 3rd, 2011, 1:45am
Personally, whenever I do translations, I'll keep them in because I started that way and I'm too lazy to change; however, excluding honorifics saves a few characters that makes text formatting so much easier and visually appealing. Still, going by the results of this poll, I guess I'll be leaving honorifics in.
» auriga on July 3rd, 2011, 3:54am
My inner weaboo would probably like to see honorifics, but it's not like I'd die if I don't.
» drunkguy on July 3rd, 2011, 2:14pm
When was the last time anyone here called their older siblings big brother or big sister, much less elder brother or elder sister? Does calling someone by their first name mean a lot in english? Is there even an english equivalent for sempai?
Removing honorifics from japanese would be like cutting curses out of english slang. Sure there are alternatives but they don't get the point across the same way shit and fuck does.
Removing honorifics from japanese would be like cutting curses out of english slang. Sure there are alternatives but they don't get the point across the same way shit and fuck does.
» dosetsu on July 3rd, 2011, 2:40pm
When I want to read manga in English, I want to read it in just that, English.
» scorpian8867 on July 4th, 2011, 3:37am
I prefer it when my manga is in Japanglish. 
» veenav on July 3rd, 2011, 4:06pm
in Asia many languages have some kind of honorifics. we don't call ours elders/seniors by just their names. i think only manga/anime which has very western feel need no honorifics. honorifics are there for expressing respect or feeling towards a person.
» silverado on July 3rd, 2011, 5:21pm
I urge everyone involved in translation to take the words of this professional Japanese translator into heart. Remember it, feel it, hear it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0
» true_grave_unit on July 4th, 2011, 11:12pm
lmao. A bit over the top, but he certainly gets the point across. It's funny how often the "professional translators suck" argument comes up. And honestly, after watching that youtube vid I'm actually conscious of how often I stop a fansub in order to read a TL note. I'll probably keep an eye out for how groups do a series.
On the poll question itself, I've read enough series either with or without them that I don't really care whether they're there or not - I'd only notice it if it's said aloud. I never really considered it crucial and I honestly can't say that I know of any series where the relationship between any two characters ultimately depended on the what honorifics they use to address each other.
On the poll question itself, I've read enough series either with or without them that I don't really care whether they're there or not - I'd only notice it if it's said aloud. I never really considered it crucial and I honestly can't say that I know of any series where the relationship between any two characters ultimately depended on the what honorifics they use to address each other.
» thevampirate on July 11th, 2011, 2:36am
I agree with that for the anime half of translations, however with manga you dont get the voice, tone, ect so leaving in honorifics adds that tone/voice in. I agree there shouldn't be TL notes in anime or manga on the page leave them in a separate page in the end. there are some points I would argue with that. certain words and phrases shouldn't be translated such as names of organizations and things like that. in the official Vis translation they took a made up Japanese word and translated it to a made up english word, "Monstrils." that's the kind of crap you get with over localizing. the reader should not loose information from the original TL but the reader also shouldn't need to translate the scanlation themselves either. I personally like certain things not translated like shingami to death god (at least call it a soul reaper or just reaper) but i think fansub groups have taken those few instances and applied them to everything. i would rather an under localized thing than a over localized version or else you will start seeing people localizing the name of 'Kurosaki Ichigo' to John Smith. Sure it seems far fetched but its not that far off if some official translations are translating names of organizations for localization.
» MrEngenious on July 3rd, 2011, 6:41pm
Just would like to remind anyone who's ever played a Japanese game that was translated into English...
Find any -sans? -chans? -kuns? -donos?
Did you even notice? Did you care in the slightest that they were missing in the off chance that you realized that game, being of Japanese origin, must've originally had honorifics?
The Phoenix Wright series is a brilliant example of localizing done well. We would not have known even half of the memes/references the Japanese version had, what would've been beneficial about throwing in names of people we don't even recognize (because we don't have or understand the programs that they're in)?
"The other things that didn’t transfer very well were for the most part, cultural references. For example, Morgan Fey’s style of speaking in the Japanese version is a very old style of Japanese and she has a peculiar way of addressing people. I had to figure out how to rework it so she still sounded formal, but slightly odd in English and came up with “Good sir!” as her way of addressing Phoenix."
Clearly we all know what old style Japanese sounds like, right? No? Well I'll be DAMNED.
I certainly didn't know that not understanding what the characters were saying led to a brilliant story and compelling gameplay. How wrong I've clearly been!
Again, exceptions definitely exist in some way or form, but they're not the rule.
Find any -sans? -chans? -kuns? -donos?
Did you even notice? Did you care in the slightest that they were missing in the off chance that you realized that game, being of Japanese origin, must've originally had honorifics?
The Phoenix Wright series is a brilliant example of localizing done well. We would not have known even half of the memes/references the Japanese version had, what would've been beneficial about throwing in names of people we don't even recognize (because we don't have or understand the programs that they're in)?
"The other things that didn’t transfer very well were for the most part, cultural references. For example, Morgan Fey’s style of speaking in the Japanese version is a very old style of Japanese and she has a peculiar way of addressing people. I had to figure out how to rework it so she still sounded formal, but slightly odd in English and came up with “Good sir!” as her way of addressing Phoenix."
Clearly we all know what old style Japanese sounds like, right? No? Well I'll be DAMNED.
I certainly didn't know that not understanding what the characters were saying led to a brilliant story and compelling gameplay. How wrong I've clearly been!
Again, exceptions definitely exist in some way or form, but they're not the rule.
» drunkguy on July 3rd, 2011, 8:35pm
Just to check, what is your stance on the use of given names as opposed to family names then? In English, outside of a formal conversation, people seldom refer to each other by their family names but in Japanese, unless one is fairly close to the person, the family name is more commonly used. Do you use mostly given names or do you make an exception and keep whatever name was in the original?
Conversely, if you were to translate English to Japanese, would you start adding/removing/changing honorifics or names?
Conversely, if you were to translate English to Japanese, would you start adding/removing/changing honorifics or names?
» MrEngenious on July 3rd, 2011, 9:24pm
I'd more than likely use the given name in a more informal environment and adapt to the way the West tend to change their words around different people. In Japan, people would talk to the parents of their friends like familyname-san. We wouldn't normally refer to the same people in the West using family or given names (unless given explicit permission whether through polite asking or whatnot) and so I'd think it'd be better to use "ma'am" or "sir". Attempting to say something like "Mrs. Familyname" directly to their face just doesn't really work out.
I will admit that the medium is important and that you could probably bend away from localizing by accepting the fact that the setting is in Japan. Fantasy settings allow you more room, IMO.
It's harder for me to imput myself into the position of translating from English to Japanese since I don't know a lick of how the Japanese language really works, but I'd probably take the same stance that I'm taking now: adapt to the target culture the best you can. It's heavily important in Japan for honorifics to be used and they don't quite have the same way of describing things as English can do.
I have read somewhere though, where some Westerners were raging about how Japanese subbers (or dubbers? I don't remember) of South Park had put in -sans and such when "they shouldn't have".
Many of us only know this very fine tip of the Japanese language and are ignorant about the fundamentals that it stems from. I know I don't know its fundamentals, but I know it's certainly not the same as English. English is the target language for many translations out there, and we can't keep fundamentals of the Japanese language in the translation without having to break some of English's. Some examples of that can be seen in the video linked above with fragments and incoherence in some lines from fansubs (although those are some extreme cases, I guess).
I will admit that the medium is important and that you could probably bend away from localizing by accepting the fact that the setting is in Japan. Fantasy settings allow you more room, IMO.
It's harder for me to imput myself into the position of translating from English to Japanese since I don't know a lick of how the Japanese language really works, but I'd probably take the same stance that I'm taking now: adapt to the target culture the best you can. It's heavily important in Japan for honorifics to be used and they don't quite have the same way of describing things as English can do.
I have read somewhere though, where some Westerners were raging about how Japanese subbers (or dubbers? I don't remember) of South Park had put in -sans and such when "they shouldn't have".
Many of us only know this very fine tip of the Japanese language and are ignorant about the fundamentals that it stems from. I know I don't know its fundamentals, but I know it's certainly not the same as English. English is the target language for many translations out there, and we can't keep fundamentals of the Japanese language in the translation without having to break some of English's. Some examples of that can be seen in the video linked above with fragments and incoherence in some lines from fansubs (although those are some extreme cases, I guess).
» Turbophoenix on July 3rd, 2011, 8:48pm
Games are quite obviously different. They want to appeal to as many people as possible. Both anime and manga are still niche markets, especially scanlations and fansubs, and as such they expect people to know a bit about Japanese culture and be interested in that kind of stuff.
I agree, you don't need honorifics, especially in anime where the tone of voice conveys familiarity or whatever, but it's a matter of personal opinion and demand, not a matter of what is right and what is wrong.
I agree, you don't need honorifics, especially in anime where the tone of voice conveys familiarity or whatever, but it's a matter of personal opinion and demand, not a matter of what is right and what is wrong.
» MrEngenious on July 3rd, 2011, 9:58pm
Yes, it's opinion. I'm stating mine quite vehemently because I know I'm in the vast minority (lol 10%) and my voice probably won't be the one listened to because the publishers will go with the majority in order to maximize appeal (and thus potential sales).
I'd like to repeat the idea that the reason anime and manga are niche markets is BECAUSE of the honorifics and the way we're styling translations today. This I got from the video linked above (don't remember when I originally saw it, but it still remains true to this day for the most part).
In order for someone new to pick up manga/anime today, they have to memorize a page of notes telling you what -kun, -chan, -sempai/-senpai, kotatsu, keikaku, baka, and all those vocabularies we, as long time consumers, are used to, in order to understand the first few lines that they read! This should not be a hurdle new consumers need to face when they want to pick up ENTERTAINMENT. Games are entertainment, I don't find them that radically different from other forms of entertainment like movies, books, anime, other than the way they're choosing to entertain us. The hurdles typically will remain the same. I'm not saying that the hurdles are impossible to jump over (consuming more of the media/Google/talking with others can help you tackle some of them) but why are they there on the FIRST areas of consumption?
Chances are, the media will introduce words or devices that you don't quite understand the first time in order to "hook" you in (typical with many shows/anime/movies), but you're still able to follow along. Honorifics aren't hooks, they're baggage. The new consumer will have to PAUSE their reading, look up what the honorific means, and THEN continue reading.
If the setting is in Japan, fine whatever, go use honorifics and make sure the person understands "oh it's Japan, it's not going to be quite like I know my life goes." I've only seen comedies/romance make use of honorifics being important, those cases are in the single digits. I've yet to see any other genre make use of honorifics in a manner unable to be translated into English.
Before someone goes and counters me with "I showed my friend manga/anime and he/she was fine with everything!" Great, those hurdles were no match for him/her. I'm unable to properly relate to the information greedy generation of today in their ability to handle these hurdles. I started my consumption of Japan-related media through the fully localized versions from television and the library. I was slowly introduced to the honorifics system as I entered the vast world of manga/anime outside of TV/Publishers. I was already heavily interested and invested into my new hobby, learning new things would certainly be a part of it.
Could I have been here today even if I was forcibly introduced to honorifics first? Quite possibly. First manga I picked up was in the middle of the series, so I knew I wouldn't understand half the stuff I was reading. Honorifics would've been part of that stuff I would skim over, but hope to understand by reading it for a bit. Unless the publisher included notes in the back though, honorifics would never be explained, while the series vocabulary would've been addressed as the plot goes on "WE NEED THE DRAGONBALLS TO SUMMON THE DRAGON TO GRANT THIS WISH". Google's our friend today, but so is laziness.
...I'm pretty sure I just went on a long tangent of sorts, hopefully I wasn't too confusing.
TL;DR: If we want to appeal to as many people as possible with entertainment, why introduce these hurdles (honorifics)? I didn't grow up with these danglies when I was getting into manga/anime, so perhaps I'm just too old fashioned?
I'd like to repeat the idea that the reason anime and manga are niche markets is BECAUSE of the honorifics and the way we're styling translations today. This I got from the video linked above (don't remember when I originally saw it, but it still remains true to this day for the most part).
In order for someone new to pick up manga/anime today, they have to memorize a page of notes telling you what -kun, -chan, -sempai/-senpai, kotatsu, keikaku, baka, and all those vocabularies we, as long time consumers, are used to, in order to understand the first few lines that they read! This should not be a hurdle new consumers need to face when they want to pick up ENTERTAINMENT. Games are entertainment, I don't find them that radically different from other forms of entertainment like movies, books, anime, other than the way they're choosing to entertain us. The hurdles typically will remain the same. I'm not saying that the hurdles are impossible to jump over (consuming more of the media/Google/talking with others can help you tackle some of them) but why are they there on the FIRST areas of consumption?
Chances are, the media will introduce words or devices that you don't quite understand the first time in order to "hook" you in (typical with many shows/anime/movies), but you're still able to follow along. Honorifics aren't hooks, they're baggage. The new consumer will have to PAUSE their reading, look up what the honorific means, and THEN continue reading.
If the setting is in Japan, fine whatever, go use honorifics and make sure the person understands "oh it's Japan, it's not going to be quite like I know my life goes." I've only seen comedies/romance make use of honorifics being important, those cases are in the single digits. I've yet to see any other genre make use of honorifics in a manner unable to be translated into English.
Before someone goes and counters me with "I showed my friend manga/anime and he/she was fine with everything!" Great, those hurdles were no match for him/her. I'm unable to properly relate to the information greedy generation of today in their ability to handle these hurdles. I started my consumption of Japan-related media through the fully localized versions from television and the library. I was slowly introduced to the honorifics system as I entered the vast world of manga/anime outside of TV/Publishers. I was already heavily interested and invested into my new hobby, learning new things would certainly be a part of it.
Could I have been here today even if I was forcibly introduced to honorifics first? Quite possibly. First manga I picked up was in the middle of the series, so I knew I wouldn't understand half the stuff I was reading. Honorifics would've been part of that stuff I would skim over, but hope to understand by reading it for a bit. Unless the publisher included notes in the back though, honorifics would never be explained, while the series vocabulary would've been addressed as the plot goes on "WE NEED THE DRAGONBALLS TO SUMMON THE DRAGON TO GRANT THIS WISH". Google's our friend today, but so is laziness.
...I'm pretty sure I just went on a long tangent of sorts, hopefully I wasn't too confusing.
TL;DR: If we want to appeal to as many people as possible with entertainment, why introduce these hurdles (honorifics)? I didn't grow up with these danglies when I was getting into manga/anime, so perhaps I'm just too old fashioned?
» Turbophoenix on July 3rd, 2011, 10:23pm
Wow, long reply. I agree with many points, disagree with a few, but what I want to focus on is this: "I'd like to repeat the idea that the reason anime and manga are niche markets is BECAUSE of the honorifics and the way we're styling translations today." It's both agree and disagree for me - agree on the manga front because official translations (depending on publisher) tend to include honorifics anyway. Disagree because official anime dubs do not. I don't own that much anime so I can't say it's like this for everything, but even Japanese voices and English subs don't include honorifics. If a beginner (let's say they are totally new to it) wanted to get into anime they'd generally rent or buy an official release, not download a fansub. And yet it's still a niche market. Can you really say that honorifics are hurting it when they aren't included?
As for being too old fashioned, I'd probably say yes. I was one of those people who was introduced to anime and manga by a friend and picked it up almost immediately with very little explanation needed, and when I did need an explanation I just used the translation notes at the back or front of the volume.
As for being too old fashioned, I'd probably say yes. I was one of those people who was introduced to anime and manga by a friend and picked it up almost immediately with very little explanation needed, and when I did need an explanation I just used the translation notes at the back or front of the volume.
» MrEngenious on July 3rd, 2011, 11:04pm
Well, guess I'm getting too old for you whippersnappers then
"If a beginner (let's say they are totally new to it) wanted to get into anime they'd generally rent or buy an official release, not download a fansub. And yet it's still a niche market. Can you really say that honorifics are hurting it when they aren't included?"
I honestly can not. I have no evidence against or for my claims (which only further enhances the "it's only your opinion" thing) in any form. It's how I feel the way things are going though.
I focus a lot on honorifics because I feel it's one of the easiest things (and I guess more obvious in my mind?) to go (first step that leads to many more). Is it precisely the problem? No, I can't and won't say that. It's a small part of the large problem with translations today.
I mentioned in an earlier post about how I feel getting rid of honorifics is a good step towards improving translations as a whole as it's a sort of a "crutch" for translators. Instead of trying to get the nuances properly explained in English, you just use the honorific and expect the reader to get it. Well fine, many people do get it.
Well then, what's the problem? For me, it's immersion. Born, raised, and fully surrounded by the English language, no way around what my brain is used to for my entire life. I don't need the constant reminders that hey, what I'm reading is from Japan! Look at all these Japanese phrases that are used by Japanese people in a Japanese fashion! I don't really need the person to address the other with their family name and honorific when it could've easily (without loss of any sort of message) been replaced with a pronoun. I don't need transliterated garbage that serves no purpose other than for the purpose of trying to inject more Japanese in (baka, shinigami, ojou-sama, goshujin-sama, all that wonderful vocabulary).
Perhaps I'm just not seeing the whole picture quite yet. I'm still quite young (despite my older generation thoughts). I do know that many translations currently out in the scanlation/fansub world (mostly from speedscanners/speedsubbers) are garbage, you don't need a degree in Japanese to be able to tell. Perhaps seeing all of those has clouded my mind a bit about the situation of manga/anime still being a niche market in the West.
I think (again, old fashioned me) that today, the newbies to manga/anime are going to get into it more from word of mouth than from personal discovery. This will more likely lead to the unnofficial (not to mention "free") releases by the community than towards the official, commercial releases.
Quite a large percentage of groups are currently speedscanners/speedsubbers, and you can probably already garner how I feel about them. However good or bad they are, they set a precedent or expectation in the minds of the newbies, leading to some crazy things I've seen happen over the time I've spent here. One instance was where some leechers attacked on a translator in the mangafox forums over an argument over a project and the translator decided to resign. You can expect the sudden mood shift that happened after he announced that. I didn't know anyone involved, but that situation was absolutely deplorable. There's something wrong with the communities of today, and the newbies are flocking to it in order to find more series to enjoy.
Again, no proof of any sorts (and again, long ass comment lol).
Perhaps you can explain to me better than I can gather for myself how things are going on. I could easily be looking in the wrong places.
"If a beginner (let's say they are totally new to it) wanted to get into anime they'd generally rent or buy an official release, not download a fansub. And yet it's still a niche market. Can you really say that honorifics are hurting it when they aren't included?"
I honestly can not. I have no evidence against or for my claims (which only further enhances the "it's only your opinion" thing) in any form. It's how I feel the way things are going though.
I focus a lot on honorifics because I feel it's one of the easiest things (and I guess more obvious in my mind?) to go (first step that leads to many more). Is it precisely the problem? No, I can't and won't say that. It's a small part of the large problem with translations today.
I mentioned in an earlier post about how I feel getting rid of honorifics is a good step towards improving translations as a whole as it's a sort of a "crutch" for translators. Instead of trying to get the nuances properly explained in English, you just use the honorific and expect the reader to get it. Well fine, many people do get it.
Well then, what's the problem? For me, it's immersion. Born, raised, and fully surrounded by the English language, no way around what my brain is used to for my entire life. I don't need the constant reminders that hey, what I'm reading is from Japan! Look at all these Japanese phrases that are used by Japanese people in a Japanese fashion! I don't really need the person to address the other with their family name and honorific when it could've easily (without loss of any sort of message) been replaced with a pronoun. I don't need transliterated garbage that serves no purpose other than for the purpose of trying to inject more Japanese in (baka, shinigami, ojou-sama, goshujin-sama, all that wonderful vocabulary).
Perhaps I'm just not seeing the whole picture quite yet. I'm still quite young (despite my older generation thoughts). I do know that many translations currently out in the scanlation/fansub world (mostly from speedscanners/speedsubbers) are garbage, you don't need a degree in Japanese to be able to tell. Perhaps seeing all of those has clouded my mind a bit about the situation of manga/anime still being a niche market in the West.
I think (again, old fashioned me) that today, the newbies to manga/anime are going to get into it more from word of mouth than from personal discovery. This will more likely lead to the unnofficial (not to mention "free") releases by the community than towards the official, commercial releases.
Quite a large percentage of groups are currently speedscanners/speedsubbers, and you can probably already garner how I feel about them. However good or bad they are, they set a precedent or expectation in the minds of the newbies, leading to some crazy things I've seen happen over the time I've spent here. One instance was where some leechers attacked on a translator in the mangafox forums over an argument over a project and the translator decided to resign. You can expect the sudden mood shift that happened after he announced that. I didn't know anyone involved, but that situation was absolutely deplorable. There's something wrong with the communities of today, and the newbies are flocking to it in order to find more series to enjoy.
Again, no proof of any sorts (and again, long ass comment lol).
Perhaps you can explain to me better than I can gather for myself how things are going on. I could easily be looking in the wrong places.
» drunkguy on July 4th, 2011, 1:07am
Now that you mention it, 90% of the stuff I read are comedies and (perverted) romance than anything else.
What I got from your post is a sense that you see translators use of honorifics as a barrier. I strongly disagree. The honorifics many scanlators use tend to be common, unobtrusive or beneficial to the dialogue. I doubt a new reader who sees Keima-kun is going to be seriously mystified or distracted by it and throwing in oneesan or sempai doesn't require more than a single sentence fragment to translate. Meanwhile, manga veterans generally appreciate the inclusion as it helps emphasize the relationship and the setting. It's like having nipples in an ecchi manga. You don't need them to advance the story but it is nice to see them anyway.
On the other hand, the view of the past in that video is far too rose colored. Back in the bad bad VHS days and flipped over left to right manga adaptations, professional releases were in a word, shit. Releases were at best unreliable and series were frequently dropped. Crap ovas filled the (small) shelf because long series required too much money and commitment to produce. Subtitled cassettes with translations that would make todays speed subbers delay their releases were sold for up to ten dollars more than dubbed animation, if it was even available. The less one says about the dubbing, the better.
I had tapes that had only two episodes on them that cost me $30 each in the early nineties. When they tried to pull this crap with DVDs, I stopped buying licensed anime altogether. Meanwhile, I don't know about scanlations but ancient fansubs were not much different than current ones. They had the same intrusive notes and the same honorifics as the current ones, only with blurry hard to read walls of hard subbed text, misspellings and bad timing. The 90's weren't called the dark age of anime in the U.S. for nothing.
Thankfully, cultural differences are the only real hurdles remaining today and it should stay that way. You won't see a pair of high school girls fighting butt naked in a public bath in an American comic or cartoon but it was a children's show called Ranma 1/2 in Japan. I can count the number of bloody violent american cartoons I've seen with one hand and still have fingers left over but such stories are a dime in a dozen in anime.
Should nudity and bloody violence be censored out to reach a wider audience? Hell no! Should Japanese be translated with the original honorifics or without? 9/10 readers seem to say keep 'em.
What I got from your post is a sense that you see translators use of honorifics as a barrier. I strongly disagree. The honorifics many scanlators use tend to be common, unobtrusive or beneficial to the dialogue. I doubt a new reader who sees Keima-kun is going to be seriously mystified or distracted by it and throwing in oneesan or sempai doesn't require more than a single sentence fragment to translate. Meanwhile, manga veterans generally appreciate the inclusion as it helps emphasize the relationship and the setting. It's like having nipples in an ecchi manga. You don't need them to advance the story but it is nice to see them anyway.
On the other hand, the view of the past in that video is far too rose colored. Back in the bad bad VHS days and flipped over left to right manga adaptations, professional releases were in a word, shit. Releases were at best unreliable and series were frequently dropped. Crap ovas filled the (small) shelf because long series required too much money and commitment to produce. Subtitled cassettes with translations that would make todays speed subbers delay their releases were sold for up to ten dollars more than dubbed animation, if it was even available. The less one says about the dubbing, the better.
I had tapes that had only two episodes on them that cost me $30 each in the early nineties. When they tried to pull this crap with DVDs, I stopped buying licensed anime altogether. Meanwhile, I don't know about scanlations but ancient fansubs were not much different than current ones. They had the same intrusive notes and the same honorifics as the current ones, only with blurry hard to read walls of hard subbed text, misspellings and bad timing. The 90's weren't called the dark age of anime in the U.S. for nothing.
Thankfully, cultural differences are the only real hurdles remaining today and it should stay that way. You won't see a pair of high school girls fighting butt naked in a public bath in an American comic or cartoon but it was a children's show called Ranma 1/2 in Japan. I can count the number of bloody violent american cartoons I've seen with one hand and still have fingers left over but such stories are a dime in a dozen in anime.
Should nudity and bloody violence be censored out to reach a wider audience? Hell no! Should Japanese be translated with the original honorifics or without? 9/10 readers seem to say keep 'em.
» silverado on July 4th, 2011, 6:56am
90% of the readers are content with shitty speedsubs and shitty speedscans. Does that mean 90% of the readers refuse to read high quality scanlations?
» drunkguy on July 4th, 2011, 8:00am
Who said people refuse high quality? I love high quality. I hate the nineties' translations and the over emphasis on localization by licensed publishers.
Flipping manga from "right to left" to "left to right," censoring out panels pages and even chapters, translating/editing out every bit of Japanese including sound effects, unreliable snail's pace releases, bad translations (I never knew onigiri meant donut in Japanese) and changing names like "Satoshi" and "Kasumi" to "Ash" and "Misty" is not my idea of high quality. Compared to this toxic waste, I'll take your so called shitty speedsubs and speedscans any day of the week.
Flipping manga from "right to left" to "left to right," censoring out panels pages and even chapters, translating/editing out every bit of Japanese including sound effects, unreliable snail's pace releases, bad translations (I never knew onigiri meant donut in Japanese) and changing names like "Satoshi" and "Kasumi" to "Ash" and "Misty" is not my idea of high quality. Compared to this toxic waste, I'll take your so called shitty speedsubs and speedscans any day of the week.
» MrEngenious on July 4th, 2011, 10:28am
I wouldn't agree to going back to the way publishers did things back in the eighties/nineties. There's nothing wrong with keeping the original Japanese names at all, no need to "Americanize" things.
Publishers have gone away from the stupid "right to left" to "left to right" flip and the majority of name changes, which is good.
There's a reason why it's snail pace releases a majority of the time, but I won't get into that, it has nothing to do with the translations, which is the topic. Doesn't make people less pissed about it though.
Your distaste for "bad translations" is incorrectly labeled. This is just localizing done to the extreme, wiping out any form of Japanese for the target audience: the general public. I wouldn't agree to this (and hopefully I didn't give this impression in my long speeches).
The less the media was aimed at the general public, the less censorship came into play. It still comes into play in some forms, but you may or may not notice it since it was reduced quite a bit (at least, for American publishers. I've heard cases in other countries where Lala in To-LOVE-Ru would have steam added on in addition to what was already there. Couldn't see a thing haha).
I still believe that honorifics are a crutch for full-on translations. It's only there because the translator is too lazy to get rid of them and because 90% of the audience here (I'm sure it's like 99% elsewhere on places like mangafox) wants them there.
Fine, I'm not in the majority and will probably never be heard by the publishers since I won't bring in the money. I'm still going to call them out on it. Me and the 10% still exist. Over-localizing is a bad thing, but transliterating is something we shouldn't accept (quite a popular thing to do in scanlations/fansubs of today, I hope the publishers never follow this route).
We could be in a sweet spot where both sides will be satisfied enough from what's being released now, we'll never know until publishers move one way or another again and give room for comparison.
Honorifics aren't the end of the world. I just don't want people to use this as an excuse to go transliterate everything.
Publishers have gone away from the stupid "right to left" to "left to right" flip and the majority of name changes, which is good.
There's a reason why it's snail pace releases a majority of the time, but I won't get into that, it has nothing to do with the translations, which is the topic. Doesn't make people less pissed about it though.
Your distaste for "bad translations" is incorrectly labeled. This is just localizing done to the extreme, wiping out any form of Japanese for the target audience: the general public. I wouldn't agree to this (and hopefully I didn't give this impression in my long speeches).
The less the media was aimed at the general public, the less censorship came into play. It still comes into play in some forms, but you may or may not notice it since it was reduced quite a bit (at least, for American publishers. I've heard cases in other countries where Lala in To-LOVE-Ru would have steam added on in addition to what was already there. Couldn't see a thing haha).
I still believe that honorifics are a crutch for full-on translations. It's only there because the translator is too lazy to get rid of them and because 90% of the audience here (I'm sure it's like 99% elsewhere on places like mangafox) wants them there.
Fine, I'm not in the majority and will probably never be heard by the publishers since I won't bring in the money. I'm still going to call them out on it. Me and the 10% still exist. Over-localizing is a bad thing, but transliterating is something we shouldn't accept (quite a popular thing to do in scanlations/fansubs of today, I hope the publishers never follow this route).
We could be in a sweet spot where both sides will be satisfied enough from what's being released now, we'll never know until publishers move one way or another again and give room for comparison.
Honorifics aren't the end of the world. I just don't want people to use this as an excuse to go transliterate everything.
» Keilis on July 9th, 2011, 10:10am
I like your thinking. Totally agree with everything you've said so far.
» Drakron on July 9th, 2011, 11:26am
Some words have no direct translation ... why on Earth do you think we have loanwords in the first place?
Lets pick a easy example, Doppelganger that is a word taken from German and if you are going to argue about it referring to a creature ... how many language specific variants of Elf exist? How about "Internet"?
Languages are living beings sort to speak that are in constant changes and evolutions, loanwords are a example of that, in the Japanese case there are specific honorifics that cannot be directly translated and by their omission it removes a social content, reworking then is more often then not a impossible task with dubious results.
Unless you are so opposed to be subjected to a foreign culture you reject EVERY element that have no direct English translation ... and I speak as a non-native English Speaker Person, English is about as foreign to me as Japanese.
Lets pick a easy example, Doppelganger that is a word taken from German and if you are going to argue about it referring to a creature ... how many language specific variants of Elf exist? How about "Internet"?
Languages are living beings sort to speak that are in constant changes and evolutions, loanwords are a example of that, in the Japanese case there are specific honorifics that cannot be directly translated and by their omission it removes a social content, reworking then is more often then not a impossible task with dubious results.
Unless you are so opposed to be subjected to a foreign culture you reject EVERY element that have no direct English translation ... and I speak as a non-native English Speaker Person, English is about as foreign to me as Japanese.
» aikaeimin on July 4th, 2011, 7:49am
It's a translation. So no honorifics, no typically Japanese endearments and fix the horrendous Engrish. As a Japanese studies scholar, I get nauseous every time I see honorifics and perfectly translatable terms left in translation. It's annoying, it's useless, and it distracts from the text.
» dosetsu on July 4th, 2011, 8:52am
From what I've seen, heard and or read, the only people who argue that Japanese honorifics and other simple rōmaji should be left in a translation are those who don't understand any Japanese (Roman) other than that. Now that they know what that roman means, it's put on a pedestal; I guess it's prestige, which is quite silly in its own right, considering how simple that roman is.
» ichigo_gyuunyuu on July 4th, 2011, 9:46am
I have mixed feelings about this. I like the honorifics in manga because it helps the characters stay in character. For example since they're Japanese I would expect them to call each other with honorifics. For me it's only natural. It's kind of like when you call someone's name, you say it according to how they pronounce it in the country the person comes from. But they do sound terrible when spoken in English dubbed anime. But hey, I only depend on Animax when it comes to anime, and as far as I can remember, they always pronounce Japanese name as though it's English (so chan becomes chen and so on)
» ArtsEnticingOrdeal on July 4th, 2011, 4:52pm
It's pretty simple for me. I like to see the honorifics when it's a Japanese setting and they are ACTUALLY being used by the people who would be saying the specific lines.
Foreign/fictional or just any kind of non-Japanese setting, I don't like them. If the characters are not... actually speaking Japanese / are not Japanese, basically, don't use them?
Foreign/fictional or just any kind of non-Japanese setting, I don't like them. If the characters are not... actually speaking Japanese / are not Japanese, basically, don't use them?
» gringe on July 6th, 2011, 12:30am
Honorifics are a crutch, plain and simple. I know it can be hard to think of a proper English equivalent sometimes, but hey, that's a translator's job. I stopped using honorifics almost altogether in my translations a while back and I haven't gotten any complaints.
» silverado on July 6th, 2011, 3:03am
So the poll should not Do we need honorifics? I need a Porsche and a Yacht, but do they make sense? Rather it should be phrased should Japanese honorifics be included in professional translations? The important thing should be what the translating community agrees on, not what the reading community consisting of 90% naturofans and speedscan readers thinks to want.
» airgemini on July 6th, 2011, 10:01pm
I like honorifics, because it's apart of Japanesse culture, your reading Japanesse manga, so you should see the culture in work.
Also honorifics are alot more specific than the English Mr./Mrs. ... etc. So they get the relationship accross quicker.
Also honorifics are alot more specific than the English Mr./Mrs. ... etc. So they get the relationship accross quicker.
» airgemini on July 6th, 2011, 10:03pm
Sorry, in <the> work.
» veenav on July 7th, 2011, 3:28pm
you said it. honorifics give us a sense of culture and also i don't want to lose words like shinigami, senpai, sensei etc. from manga.
» gringe on July 8th, 2011, 10:25pm
No offense guys, but unless you know much about Japanese or translation, I'm not so sure you're in a position to be saying what portrays culture.
» Turbophoenix on July 9th, 2011, 5:37am
No offense to you, but that's obviously not the case. If a country differs greatly from your own then it's quite clear where the cultural differences are. You don't need to be an expert to see it.
» gringe on July 13th, 2011, 1:33am
As a matter of fact, I do find it offensive that someone who's read some manga thinks that honorifics are a necessary part of "culture" when it'd get things across just as well without them. If you're looking for culture you'd be better off looking at the actions of the characters than a title attached to the end of someone's name.
Here's something to think about that's totally relevant here. In an episode of a TV show I watched the other day, a character who didn't know Spanish very well (but thought she did) was hired by a Mexican actor as a tutor. She assumed that because he used the less formal "tu" instead of "su" that he was coming on to her, when in fact tu is used with just about anyone you can be friendly with. Similarly, I have a feeling many readers of manga may not understand honorifics as well as they think they do.
Here's something to think about that's totally relevant here. In an episode of a TV show I watched the other day, a character who didn't know Spanish very well (but thought she did) was hired by a Mexican actor as a tutor. She assumed that because he used the less formal "tu" instead of "su" that he was coming on to her, when in fact tu is used with just about anyone you can be friendly with. Similarly, I have a feeling many readers of manga may not understand honorifics as well as they think they do.
» veenav on July 13th, 2011, 4:16pm
i have a book i wrote full of Japanese names and also uses as a dictionary for each cultural stuff and words i learn. i am not a beginner at this. i play visual novels and games, watch anime, read manga and loves their art and music, clothes, house layout etc. i like calling some characters using honorifics because i like to call them that. even if someone is a beginner in this they can try to learn and love the culture or just reject it. i don't reject any country's culture or language. in my place we don't use mr./miss. we just use honorifics or just use their first names. but that doesn't mean i call people of other countries this way. i use -san or mr. where appropriate. why do you assume all the other people are total newbies or hates the honorifics? what if the translators who use honorifics are using them because they like it that way? they are also making people who read their stuff eventually like to learn more of Japanese culture and language. what if manga too is fully changed, as renaming characters, cutting culture words or stuff, using other English songs like some anime dubbing company? at least leave manga alone. the English manga publishers can decide if they want to remove the culture stuff. the scanlators love manga, that's why they are sharing it to all the fans. they have the choice of not including the honorifics and words from the translations before typesetting in to manga. if you truly love the culture not just for the manga/anime you would not remove the culture words. only exclude them if you feel that a particular manga don't sound right with honorifics.
» silverado on July 15th, 2011, 10:18am
Only amateurs think they can decide for the reader what he is supposed to know and what not.
» veenav on July 16th, 2011, 2:54pm
this is a insult to the scanlators. as i said it's their choice to include the honorifics. if you don't want to include honorifics in your scans it's your choice. but why are you trying to convince others by using sentences like the majority are naruto readers and others? i don't read naruto. i didn't want any arguments when i first commented in this poll. i was just stating my opinion. the fans are not forcing anyone to bring best quality of scans or transitions. we just want to read our favorite series.
anyway this topic is already over. the scanlators are the ones that decide. so just leave me alone already.
anyway this topic is already over. the scanlators are the ones that decide. so just leave me alone already.
» silverado on July 16th, 2011, 7:20pm
This is exactly the fan girl attitude I was referring to that created this ridiculous trend. They don't understand how ridiculous they sound, when they are defending broken English and half translations. If a scanlator uses google translation and puts it into his scanlation, wouldn't your manga heart cry and you protest against this nonsense? It is the very same feeling when I read a honorific diseased series. The goal of a translation is to create a seamless reading experience for the reader, similar to what a Japanese would experience when he was reading a Japanese book or when an American experience when he was reading an American book. What you are replicating is only what an foreigner reading a Japanese book with low translation skills would experience.
» veenav on July 16th, 2011, 7:35pm
is this website allowing this kind of insult? i told you to leave me alone.
» hollabaloo on July 9th, 2011, 6:01pm
...Shinigami isn't an honorific though. Localization =/= excising all aspects of culture.
