Tell me, what does your ass smell like?

Although it may not be my place to do so, I'd ask that you recuse yourself from the conversation if you intend to continue on as you have been. You are being unnecessarily rude and are hardly addressing the original questions posed.

In defense of zim, some people place a greater importance on the exact meaning of words as opposed to implied meaning, and this does not make them arrogant or unreasonable.

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Aww, and I was really looking foreward to a second post. Well, if you have time in the future, please come back and post some more.

TheShawn, thank you for joining in. I only asked that one read the previous posts for context. If you understand the context of this thread after only four pages (and I believe you do), then all is well. The reason I asked that you answer each question individually is because I predicted that I would recieve incomplete answers and have to coax a complete answer out of most people. You aren't most people. As long as you continue answering in the way that you have (direct, lacking ambiguous terms, and thorough), I would like you to continue answering the rest of my phase1 question and in a separate post answer my phase2 question

Saons, thanks again for your contribution to my brain. Please move on to phase2. Arigato gozaimas!

Cayoss, I assume you no longer wish to be part of this thread. That's sad; good bye.

Last edited by zimzimbadabim at 9:42 am, Aug 15 2012

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That's really the only rude thing I've said, unless you're some preppy church kid and think ass, damn, and hell are bad words, lol.

I was under the impression that the OP was talking about actions, and not material object, hence why I said there is only bad and worse.

A "church kid" may be uncomfortable with you calling them preppy, especially if they are from a poor family and see preppy people as self centered and prideful. Also, hmmm, you have brought up a valuable point about words. I may consider making that part of a future question.

If I mean actions, I will specify. I meant and still mean good and bad in the most general senses conceivable.

Also, how is breathing, sitting, or reading a bad action? What do you mean by bad? If you mean "so beautiful that it overtakes the mind," then I apologize for misunderstanding your view of right and wrong. Otherwise, please explain.

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A thread about morality? Wonderful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UGJtv3ccs0

I don't expect you to understand. The sad reality is that one cannot argue logic with religious people. All religions belief systems are based on faith. Science on the other hand is based on trial and error, observation and proofs. I suggest you read more Hitchens, Dawkins and biology textbooks. History textbooks can also help you understand why religion is fairy tales... Read Greek myth.

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My understanding is that you are now looking to answers to your phase 2 question? That is what I will try to answer, though feel free to ask if you would like me to address anything else...


Starting by giving you some context, although my family isn't at all religious, I went to an Anglican school for both primary and secondary school. This meant that I had a lot of time to really understand the Christian faith, and to more generally think about religion and what my own values and beliefs are.

One of the key things that led me to become an atheist was my strong belief that there is nothing else when we die. And this leads in to my own answer for your question, 'Why consider living?' - I feel that there is nothing else other than the life we are leading now, so why throw that away? But in saying that, I also feel strongly that if your life is so terrible that every day is a burden, and there is no chance for that to ever turn around, there shouldn't be anything to stop you deciding not to continue living.

In terms of behaving well, I think that there is a minimum standard that people must adopt in order for a community to function. I think, considering that (in my mind) there is only one chance for us, that everyone should live as well as they can, and respect one another, in order that the maximum possible number of people are able to live their lives happily.
I also think that behaving well carries its own reward, in that generally people like you more, you have more fun because you have friends, you don't feel guilty about things that you have done wrong etc.

I can answer OP's question with two words. Common sense.
Another way to look at it would be how you'd feel if something you're thinking about doing happened to you (think about how your actions effect other people). It can apply for just about any scenario. Or if the ends justifies the means. Like stealing food out of hunger instead of pleasure, i.e. stealing healthy(ish) food could be more justifiable while stealing candy really isn't. Kill only to protect you or your loved one's lives. My values and beliefs just like a religious person's values and beliefs IMO, except without the God fearing, praying, and church attending.
Why continue to live? It's hardwired into every animals brain. Sure some people are suicidal, but others (like me) have something to live for. Even if I had nothing, the thought of dying still sucks. It's the end! And if God does exist, I'm going to hell for being a non-believer. I'd rather live so I can keep having sex, having fun and just watching how events unfold. People should be good for the reasons stated above. Many people being "bad" would influence others to do the same, which would cause chaos (see Africa). Just like many manga say: hatred brings about more hatred. I hate my fair share of people and often think about brutalizing them, but i never act on it. Most people have families that'd be torn and distraught over something as simple as having one of their loved one beaten. I can guess how I'd feel if something happened to a loved one or how my parents/girlfriend/siblings/niece/nephew would feel if I was beaten badly. I wouldn't want someone else going through that pain unless the receiver of said pain really had it coming. For example, I moved to a town a week before another kid and we became friends right away. He was my first friend and I was his. Ten years later, he rips me off out of the blue for $60. $60! I've been pondering about burning his house down while he sleeps, but I know I'd feel guilty afterwords so I just let it go. Don't get me wrong, if I see him, I'll whoop his ass pretty good. I guess jail would be a deterrent for that matter since he's a pansy and will snitch me out. It's hard to just give one answer as there are so many types of wrongdoing. It's a person-by-person basis sometimes. Sometimes it's not. It's a broad question, but I tried. I'm also tired, so I'll end it here.

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-No longer do I quote great scholars, the famous, etc. Kids feigning wisdom ruined it.
--I wont type a post like a college report. If you don't read it just for that reason, you don't have to post why your hoity-toity ass refused to. I swear, so many people on this site are so full of themselves. A lot seem to think they always have an "intelligent and/or logical" point or show signs of a superiority complex. They never admit they're wrong. Maybe partially, but excuses abound! :\
-Stop mailing me about my comments. I don't read them.
/sigrant

xtr3m3dude, before I start a ramblin', allow me to comunicate how dissapointed I am that you did not even care about my inital post enough to read it and remember what it said. This is not a about morality. Yes, morality my come up from time to time, but do not degrade the entirety of this discussion to something so meager as morality. I asked you to read the previous posts, but you clearly have not.

Now, not to say that Richard Dawkins isn't a very inteligent reasoner, but you should have picked a different clip. It was most likely unintentional, but he refuted a "straw man" as it were and didn't really address the Indian man's statement. Infact, if you had read the many wonderful posts within this thread, then you would realize that some of your fellow MU members did address the Indian man's statement, and did a much better job at it than Dawkins. No offense to Dawkins, maybe he was having an off day, or maby I, the viewer, have been given NO CONTEXT for his statement and am judging it presumptuously.

Also. . . The paragraph that you wrote has NOTHING to do with this thread. I'm not even sure if you are addressing me or someone else entirely. Are you in the right thread? I'm begining to think that you are lost in the great forum forrest.


Autumnstarshine, you are correct; phase2 is the indeed the matter at hand. There is much I wish to ask about, but mostly, what is guilt? Why does it exist? Also, you didn't answer the last part of the question. Why not be/behave bad/badly?


That3rdGuy, please understand that I mean no offense and I am not joking when I write that your answer was so round-about and indirect (the opposite of what I asked) that I actually became dizzy from reading that horrible paragraph that seemed to have no end. Please spare me the anurism, and rephrase your answer to be direct and concise while containing little to no ambiguous terms. Also, please don't use the word justifiable. Justice is another matter that I don't want to get into. I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but you need the criticism to improve your writing.

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Well, your broad question did the same to me. I guess we're in the same boat.
You're asking question that's a person-by-person basis about atheism on a manga release website. You can't expect some eye-opening answer from a few people. That's just my tornado of thoughts that spewed forth. Now I agree it's not pretty, as I'm not trying to get graded nor submit it to some reputable publishing. If I can't justify things myself, who do I look to it for? The government? I have to do it myself since I don't agree with other outlets such as religion. Sorry I couldn't find the answer for you
It just seems like you criticizing everyone yourself by the looks of it. Nobody's answer is what you're looking for nor is it good enough to be posted since it only wastes your precious time by the sounds of it. You asked and people are answering you, but none of the answers are good enough for you so whatever. Perhaps you should look elsewhere? Not that'll do any good but spur arguments, like it seems your doing.
Have fun doing whatever it is you're doing. Oh, and I didn't read any of the previous posts either. But you noticed that, didn't you?
Byyyyeeee!

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-No longer do I quote great scholars, the famous, etc. Kids feigning wisdom ruined it.
--I wont type a post like a college report. If you don't read it just for that reason, you don't have to post why your hoity-toity ass refused to. I swear, so many people on this site are so full of themselves. A lot seem to think they always have an "intelligent and/or logical" point or show signs of a superiority complex. They never admit they're wrong. Maybe partially, but excuses abound! :\
-Stop mailing me about my comments. I don't read them.
/sigrant

Those aren't moral actions. Those are everyday actions that people don't think twice about. Again I was thinking you meant moral actions. Looks like I'll have to specify every little fucking detail cause you're so god damn anal it's ridiculous. And when I say bad and worse. I mean:
Of poor quality; inferior or defective

- a bad diet
- bad eyesight


(of a person) Not able to do something well; incompetent

- I'm so bad at names
- a bad listener


Unpleasant or unwelcome

- bad news
- bad weather


Unsatisfactory or unfortunate

- bad luck
- taking the good with the bad


(of an unwelcome thing) Serious; severe

- bad headaches
- a bad crash
- a bad mistake


Unfavorable; adverse

- bad reviews


Harmful

- soap was bad for his face


Not suitable

- morning was a bad time to ask Andy about anything


(of food) Decayed; putrid

- everything in the fridge would go bad


(of the atmosphere) Polluted; unhealthy

- bad air


(of parts of the body) Injured, diseased, or causing pain

- a bad back


(of a person) Unwell

- I feel bad


Regretful, guilty, or ashamed about something

- working mothers who feel bad about leaving their children


Morally depraved; wicked

- the bad guys
- bad language
- a bad reputation


Naughty; badly behaved

- what a bad girl
- bad behavior


Worthless; not valid

- he ran up 87 bad checks

And worse:
adjective /wərs/ 

Of poorer quality or a lower standard; less good or desirable
- the accommodations were awful, and the food was worse

More serious or severe
- the movement made the pain worse

More reprehensible or evil
- it is worse to intend harm than to be indifferent

In a less satisfactory or pleasant condition; more ill or unhappy
- he felt worse, and groped his way back to bed

adverb /wərs/ 

Less well or skillfully
- the more famous I became the worse I painted

More seriously or severely
- the others had been drunk too, worse than herself

Used to introduce a statement of circumstances felt by the speaker to be more serious or undesirable than others already mentioned
- The system will find it hard to sort out property disputes. Even worse, the law will discourage foreign investment

noun /wərs/ 

A more serious or unpleasant event or circumstance
- the small department was already stretched to the limit, but worse was to follow

A less good, favorable, or pleasant condition
- the weather changed for the worse

Like Thomas Hardy said. "And yet to every bad there is a worse."

I haven't read through all of the thread yet but please feel free to call me out if I'm covering stuff people have already talked about. Like, a lot of your questions are related to philosophy so if you're interested in world views not rooted in Christianity I would look into that. The podcast "Partially Examined Life" is a nice podcast to get introduced to some of the concepts, since they assume the listener doesn't know anything about philosophy.

Sorry in advance for the wall of text.

How do you determine what is right and wrong? What does it mean for something to be right/wrong? What is good? What is bad? How do you know?

I'll repeat what others have said and begin with a statement: right and wrong are subjective. This is pretty obvious when we think about how often people argue about right and wrong. Is abortion right or wrong? Death penalty? Suicide? Gay marriage? Are you pro or anti skub? etc etc.

THAT BEING SAID, there are areas where humanity seems to have a common set of morals. Rape is pretty much universally seen as a bad thing. Murder, outside of war, is punished. Courage and generosity are considered virtues, not weaknesses. Try wiki-ing "Trolly Problems" for some interesting thought experiments/studies on this. Humans do have a tendency towards following societal norms and morals but it is by no means set in stone.

As for how to know what is good and what is bad, it helps to have some basic statements. Pain feels bad. Pleasure feels good. Some people are fine with that and live their lives hedonistically. Some people might add a qualifier: Pleasure feels good, as long as I'm not harming someone to attain it. Some are Nietzsche wannabes and say pain makes them stronger. Again, read up on some philosophy, seriously.

As for me, I'm only a beginner philosopher so I haven't really hashed out a system of beliefs for myself but my approach to good and bad involves a heck of a lot of introspection, thinking, challenging my assumptions and reading abstracts for psychology papers. A scientific approach pretty much. I don't trust my intuition or common sense, mostly because science has taught us that people's intuition is often laughably wrong. There are plenty of people who think misogyny, or gay-shaming is "common sense". If they can get it wrong, who am I to say that I know for sure that I am right?

Why continue living? Should one be/behave good/goodly? Why not be/behave bad/badly?

I continue living because I enjoy living and also because I'm curious as heck to see what the world will be like in 5, 10, 15, etc years. There are world views out there where suicide is a perfectly acceptable out, although I don't agree with this since I wouldn't want to hurt my family. To each their own I guess. As for whether one "Should" be good, I don't like the word "should" but maybe that's just 'cause I'm a moral relativist. I feel like it needs a qualifier here. Good for who? If I off myself tomorrow and die in hospital that sucks for my parents but is awesome for the kid next door who now has a kidney donor. Is good more concerned for the self, or for others? It's one of those things you have to decide on your own.

Why don't I behave badly? After all, there's no hell so screw everyone else! I'm gonna go out in a blaze of glory and die in a motorcycle accident ODing on meth! Just kidding. Honestly, I'm not a stark raving mad criminal for the reason most other people aren't, Christian or otherwise. It isn't good socially, and people like being liked. Society punishes people who do wrong, and I don't wanna go to jail. And I like thinking of myself as a fundamentally good person.

Actually, yes it is. Your entire set of initial questions were about morality.


Dawkins' argument wasn't a straw man because it holds up even if you disregard the immoral examples of absolute morality he provided. I don't understand what context you could possibly want for his statement. He was very clear when he said he wanted a though out, reasoned morality. As civilization progresses we gain more knowledge and further enlightenment, therefore we need to constantly redefine morality by making use of our new-found knowledge. Dawkins gave examples of that when he mentioned slavery, equality of women, kindness to animals etc.

If that man who asked the question was indeed Indian (he could have been a Pakistani Muslim), then he would've most likely been a Hindu and the examples of bad absolute morality Dawkins threw out there initially wouldn't have anything to do with the Hindu morality, however the fact is that all absolute morality stemming from religion is fundamentally similar in at least one very major way. You have a core set of unchangeable tenets (principles) you must follow blindly if you would like to qualify for that religion's version of the afterlife. Therefore Dawkins' explanation of why reasoned non-absolute morality is better still applies (if we are using logic).

Again. Your first set of question which I quoted in my previous post were:

Dawkins answered that but you seem like you are stuck on the "what's good/bad and how do you know part". We as modern people of the 21st century decide what to accept as good or bad. How do we know? "Through a consensus of reasoning, sober discussion, argument, legal theory, political and moral philosophy..." We used our brains and thought it out and will continue do so. It has to be a continuous process.

Your second set of questions which I didn't feel was even necessary to quote:

You don't have to continue living. You have a choice. You don't have to behave "good". You have a choice. Some people are warped and cannot comprehend the why. Some people understand why they shouldn't do something destructive or harmful or immoral but choose to do it anyway, for their own satisfaction or benefit or whatever. Last question: Why not be/behave bad/badly? You can behave any way you like, but there are consequences. Society has penalties for destructive or detrimental behaviors. If you cannot integrate yourself in society you will be forcefully segregated (in jail, asylum, etc).

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I second the notion for posting on Reddit. You would get plenty of responses if you post it under r/Atheism (Atheism subreddit). Not everyone will take it kindly, so be prepared for trolls, but otherwise, you will get plenty of responses as well as some very intelligent answers (since many professionals use the site). Making an account is also a fairly easy process so go do it!

OT:
I'm more agnostic than atheist but I do not believe in the God as told by the prominent monotheistic religions exists.

Why continue living?
The better question is why die? If you are alive and enjoy it, why not live?
Should one be/behave good/goodly? Why not be/behave bad/badly?
Behaving good good in society is more for the sake of self preservation than anything. If you are labelled as a "bad" person, trying to live will become a lot harder since people will hold certain prejudice against you. People are social creatures; we create communities as protection against the harsh realities of life (i.e. disease, death, ourselves). If you commit an act of atrocity as defined by society and get caught, you are only hurting yourself. This is why when anonymity is more or less guaranteed, people have no problem hurting each other. Acts of good are a bit different though. I will most likely do it for the sake of self satisfaction since I have this illogical sense called justice (don't ask me why because I don't know the answer) or I may just do it on a whim which is also self satisfaction.

Ah, I had a feeling it would eventually come to this, but I hoped that it would be a bit later. I have realized the limits of the english language and the medium of lé forum.

I keep asking every new person the same questions, and the new posters keep making the same mistakes as the previous posters even though having their example should have remedied this. I am tired of trying to get people to think on the same page, but as personalities differ so does reasoning. This is beautiful, but too chaotic when not in a face-to-face conversation.

That3rdGuy, I understand now, that the ways we process and express information are just too different. You are indeed answering my questions but you are addressing far more at the same time, too much more. This is simply the way that your mind associates thought. It's good in a conversation, but a complete bitch when put in writing.

Swirly, I loved your answer, but answers like yours are too few in the chaos that is this thread for me to continue.

To everyone else, good bye.

P.S. If you still have an answer pending, message it to me. I still want those definitions of love that I asked for of a few people.

This is zimzimbadabim signing off.

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