Ok this should end once and for all. We will have a world wide religius wars. 1st war to deside what religion is right the loosing team wil lloose all there sacret artifacts and all traces of there religion will be burned. And have another war to deside if god exists or not. If the Athiests win then all traces of religion will be burned if the religius people win then everyone in the whole world will be the same religion and this topic will never be discused again cuz if anyone asks " Does god realy exist and trys to prove the god does not exist they shall be killed. " and the same goes if the athests win if some one say " I wonder if there is a higher power im going to go and find out " they will be killed. With this plan we will spare our selves of millions of years of war and disputes. ill be on the Athests side.
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Believing in God
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No.
Maybe.
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Member
3:22 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 180
3:22 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 180
Member
3:22 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 1668
Warn: Banned
Quote from Loupiotte
Quote from wobser
gives hugs to everyone belivers and non belivers doesnt matter to me you are still people 
You included? With the avatar you've taken?!? Urgh! Not even on my dead body!
And yes I'm back, told you I couldn't refrain my curiosity. Moreover, Savantsage's been using bait with his cheesecake and applecake. Cheater.
Ok, I agree to make up with everyone but please, no hugs!!
More on topic, isn't Pandora's box as well as the apple supposed to symbolize Knowledge? So basically, what is being punished in both cases is the thirst for answers. And it's a patriarchal order that forbids women to reach for it... Doesn't it ring a bell? Not so much change over the centuries.
No...God is punishing you because you are too stupid to be smart...........yeah...paradox...or is it an oxymoron? ohhhhhhh
The phrase is "Necessity is the mother of inventions, but Curiosity kills the cat"
WE already had a holy war!
________________
Gay book discussion thread
Quote from you_no_see_me_
this is not about cannibalism...please get back on topic
Quote from Toto
I think it is exactly the topic. I see nothing wrong.
Member
3:35 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 87
Too stupid to be smart, I like that definition of me!!
And it's a paradox. An oxymoron would require a noun and adjective juxtaposed.
And it's a paradox. An oxymoron would require a noun and adjective juxtaposed.
Member
3:36 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 246
Quote from xObscurexOmenx
Quote
Unfortunately a pair of people made a really poor choice and infected this world with a plague called sin.
Actually, this isn't correct. EVE is the one who "made a really poor choice." Of course the woman, who was also made after Adam (as an afterthought, perhaps?), is the person to blame for all things evil. When you look at the Bible, it's really kind of sad about the number of patriarchal happenings that occur.
Oh, and is it just me, or does the story of Adam and Eve sound strangely like the Greek story of Pandora? Woman goes against an order due to curiosity which causes the woman to unleash evil upon the world. Now, the majour question: is the story of Adam and Eve an original, or is Eve just Pandora in a new setting?
And then there's the whole inner message of submission to God and the state of ignorance. Why would God fear intelligence unless he feared that his grip upon humanity would be destroyed? Keeping people in the dark is the easiest way to manipulate them, since you can feed them little lies or half-truths that they will believe whole-heartedly.
And on a slightly different note, you get to the contradictions of God himself. How can a being be all powerful? It's not possible. The question that make it obvious: Can God make a rock that he cannot lift? If he cannot, he is not all-powerful. If he can, he is not all-poweful. It's a lose-lose situation. The whole omniscient thing doesn't really help, either. If God is omniscient and all-powerful, then he should be able to see his future decisions/actions. If he knows his future, can he change it? If he can, he is not omniscient. If he can't, then he's not all-powerful. Plus, I doubt that Hell, Satan, or "evil" would exist (assuming that the Bible is true) if such a being was in control of everything. If God did see what these things would cause (the suffering, the torment of innocents merely for not agreeing with a certain religion, etc), then God is not benevolent. God would be no different from Hitler (both rule with fear, both threaten death/torture if one is noncompliant, both honour submission and ignorance while hoarding power, etc), if he (God, not Hitler. -_-; ) actually exists.
Something tells me that I should stay away from this forum for a while. The subject tends make me a bit verbose. ._. Read at your own risk.
Wow this has to be one of the best questions/statements I have seen in these forums. You make a lot of great observations, although I'm not entirely sure but I would guess you made the effort to read the bible. It's really funny that you mentioned Eve being the sole person responsible for the downfall of mankind, because thats exactly what adam said to God when God confronted them about the fruit. Although I won't extrapolate on the fact that even today women in many relationships take the blame for things going wrong by the man, I don't think that you can blame eve entirely for this. Temptation is temptation, I think we all have felt it at some point in our lives and I don't think there is a single person here that would say that its easy to conquer temptation every single time. Adam certainly could have said no, but he didn't. Instead he blamed eve for his predicament. How easy is it to cast blame on eveyone else except for yourself. I know I'm just as guilty.
I also must admit that there is a very interesting similarity between the pandoras box and adam and eve delimma that i never really noticed before. Sin is what came out of the disobedience, and evil is what came out of the box.
I have to admit that I don't have a very satisfying answer to your statements about God. I have asked my Bible study these same questions but I think the jist of what they told me was that the question of Can God make a rock that he cannot lift? is not correct. Because we are making an assumption of God. The assumption we are making is that God follows the same rules that we do. Does God follow the rules behind gravity. Does he obey the laws of Thermodynamics. Does he understand that you can't create something out of nothing. According to the Bible I would think not, because he did create something out of nothing. But I think that depends on whether or not you believe that the Bible is the truth and the word of God.
Lastly, I wanted to apologize to this forum and community for the statements that I have made. I certainly didn't mean to attack anybody's faith or beliefs. I wanted to simply share something that took me a long time to figure out. I'm a very grateful to the fact that you guys were so patient with me. I am certainly no saint, and I can be a real hard headed person sometimes. As you probably guessed I enjoy having these discussions because I haven't really gotten a chance to really talk with Atheists and other people that have faiths and beliefs that are different from my own. I hope you won't boot me out of this site, because of my belief of God. Because there are few sites that I know of that have such a wide variety of fun loving manga enthusiasts. Plus the fact that I love how fast this site comes out with School Rumble.
Member
6:25 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 267
@xObscurexOmenx
I think it is unfair to blame Eve. while it is said that she was the first, the fact is adam had a choice in the matter. eve is not at fault for "sin". Adam could have stayed pure but decided not to and ate the fruit also. frankly the Apple itself was nothing. by them taking a bite it signified disobedience and the first act of sin. since sin is just going against a principle or standard. them not eating was basically the standard God had set and they willingly went against it.
In reference to God being able to see the future. how does him being able to change his actions not make him omniscient? the term refers to unlimited knowledge. changing his actions just to do it shouldn't be a problem
Along the lines of the rock that he is unable to lift. i have heard this before by someone who doesn't believe in god, he also gave an answer for it. that being that God could make a rock that he is unable to lift, which could be overturned at any time that he wanted or saw fit. so while being unable to lift he could at the same time change the properties of it thus making it possible to lift. so while it makes it seem impossible at the same time it is. i found it odd. not stating it is true just something i have heard, since frankly i didn't have an answer for it. and it does in essence answer your question
On the topic of God being cruel for even making this world. This is a pretty blinded statement. a true religious person will state that this earth is an example of sin seen by his other creations. What has happened here is not a result of Gods doing but the people in it.
In the belief that God created all things there is nowhere that states he forces people to do anything. the fact is we all have a choice. in the instance of Satan frankly put it is shown biblically that he is allowed to do w/e on earth for the time being. Connecting That and earth being an example of sin to the other creations is pretty simple while not said directly.
The book of job. if you know about adam and eve i would assme you have heard of Job also. right at the beginning it talks about the "Sons of God" comming before him. Satan is the one who came to represent earth. This being because Adam was dead. and yes Adam biblically is considered a Son of God. Proof of that can be found in plain lettering in Luke chapter 3. it gives the Genealogy of Christ which goes all the way back to Adam the son of God.
While he is the Son of God it is considered different than "the Word" who became the son of God(jesus). the reason i am pointing this out is because of when it is stated that the "Sons of God" came to present themselves. this reference was after earths creation.(Satan said he came from earth) and since it is Satan that went along with others that would mean that there are other creations that are considered the Son of God-(and other worlds). Adam can be considered a different type of creation. he wasn't created like "Satan" thus his life span was altered when disobeying.
the death after eating the fruit is also a topic up for discussion. one can consider the punishment of eating the fruit which is refered to in genesis as death the death of the spiritual connection with God in turn affecting the bodies life span for this specific creation. or w/e along those lines you feel like putting. Thus the death of adam many years later was inevitable for Satan to be the Son of earth after being cast down
Frankly this book is all about interpretations.
Oh and i am not trying to get on anyones bad side. i am getting a bit annoyed tho that u guys are teaming up and bashin on Zubs beliefs just because it is different
Last edited by Varna at 6:30 pm, May 15 2007
________________
HUBBY of DUBBY
I think it is unfair to blame Eve. while it is said that she was the first, the fact is adam had a choice in the matter. eve is not at fault for "sin". Adam could have stayed pure but decided not to and ate the fruit also. frankly the Apple itself was nothing. by them taking a bite it signified disobedience and the first act of sin. since sin is just going against a principle or standard. them not eating was basically the standard God had set and they willingly went against it.
In reference to God being able to see the future. how does him being able to change his actions not make him omniscient? the term refers to unlimited knowledge. changing his actions just to do it shouldn't be a problem
Along the lines of the rock that he is unable to lift. i have heard this before by someone who doesn't believe in god, he also gave an answer for it. that being that God could make a rock that he is unable to lift, which could be overturned at any time that he wanted or saw fit. so while being unable to lift he could at the same time change the properties of it thus making it possible to lift. so while it makes it seem impossible at the same time it is. i found it odd. not stating it is true just something i have heard, since frankly i didn't have an answer for it. and it does in essence answer your question
On the topic of God being cruel for even making this world. This is a pretty blinded statement. a true religious person will state that this earth is an example of sin seen by his other creations. What has happened here is not a result of Gods doing but the people in it.
In the belief that God created all things there is nowhere that states he forces people to do anything. the fact is we all have a choice. in the instance of Satan frankly put it is shown biblically that he is allowed to do w/e on earth for the time being. Connecting That and earth being an example of sin to the other creations is pretty simple while not said directly.
The book of job. if you know about adam and eve i would assme you have heard of Job also. right at the beginning it talks about the "Sons of God" comming before him. Satan is the one who came to represent earth. This being because Adam was dead. and yes Adam biblically is considered a Son of God. Proof of that can be found in plain lettering in Luke chapter 3. it gives the Genealogy of Christ which goes all the way back to Adam the son of God.
While he is the Son of God it is considered different than "the Word" who became the son of God(jesus). the reason i am pointing this out is because of when it is stated that the "Sons of God" came to present themselves. this reference was after earths creation.(Satan said he came from earth) and since it is Satan that went along with others that would mean that there are other creations that are considered the Son of God-(and other worlds). Adam can be considered a different type of creation. he wasn't created like "Satan" thus his life span was altered when disobeying.
the death after eating the fruit is also a topic up for discussion. one can consider the punishment of eating the fruit which is refered to in genesis as death the death of the spiritual connection with God in turn affecting the bodies life span for this specific creation. or w/e along those lines you feel like putting. Thus the death of adam many years later was inevitable for Satan to be the Son of earth after being cast down
Frankly this book is all about interpretations.
Oh and i am not trying to get on anyones bad side. i am getting a bit annoyed tho that u guys are teaming up and bashin on Zubs beliefs just because it is different
Last edited by Varna at 6:30 pm, May 15 2007
________________
HUBBY of DUBBY
Member
6:41 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 1668
Warn: Banned
Now, the mysterious character of the human called belief will be analyzed by me, the cheese cake lover.
Pure and strong belief in something is good. It gives you will power. It gives you motivation.
Usually, these people are motivated by :
Religious purpose
Economical
Social morality
Nationalism
Self belief.
I'm sure you are all familiar with the first four, the last one, however, solely depends on yourself. The depth and strength of your own will to motivate you to do what you believe in without any other outside motivation by morality code, religion, money, and such.
________________
Gay book discussion thread
Pure and strong belief in something is good. It gives you will power. It gives you motivation.
Usually, these people are motivated by :
Religious purpose
Economical
Social morality
Nationalism
Self belief.
I'm sure you are all familiar with the first four, the last one, however, solely depends on yourself. The depth and strength of your own will to motivate you to do what you believe in without any other outside motivation by morality code, religion, money, and such.
________________
Gay book discussion thread
Quote from you_no_see_me_
this is not about cannibalism...please get back on topic
Quote from Toto
I think it is exactly the topic. I see nothing wrong.
Member
7:46 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 221
@ Varna
True, Adam is to blame as well. However, Eve happens to carry most of the responsibility for giving into temptation in the first place. If she hadn't, then she wouldn't've convinced Adam to do so as well. While I'm not saying that this is the right thing to do, it probably would spark the hatred of women in older, more patriarchal societies around the beginning of Christianity.
As for the omniscient bit, I apologise if I worded it strangely. I did not mean to say that it's impossible for God to be omniscient. It is merely impossible for God to be both omniscient and all-powerful. You can be one or the other, but you cannot be both at the same time. If you know what you are going to do in the future (omniscience), you obviously can't change it, and this makes it impossible for an omniscient being to be all-poweful. If you can change what you "foresee," then you can't really be omniscient anymore.
._. The "answer" to the rock conundrum is very strange, I'll agree. It doesn't really make much sense to me, though. How can you lift something and also be unable to lift it at the same time? If you can possibly elaborate, I would appreciate it, 'cos I'm seriously just staring blankly at the screen.
My majour point about God being "evil" (if He is omniscient) was basically about the existence of Hell; I just thought I might as well throw in evil and Satan for good measure. I've recently read a book ("Atheist Universe" by David Mills; it's quite good) that goes into whether or not Hell exists. The chapter argues that it cannot, since it would have no good purpose. Plus, God would know that most people would not make it into Heaven (if you are a Christian, then Ghandi is eternally burning in Hell simply because he was not a Christian), even if they did believe in Him, so having such a place for ETERNAL damnation just seems a bit like overkill. (There were a few other arguments against why Hell would not be like modern prisons/jails (made in order to separate the bad from the good to keep the population safe), but I am unable to remember them off the top of my head (my friend's borrowing the book).) (... Parentheses are your friends?)
>< I dunno if it's just the way my brain's working right now, the time (it's not that late, but I'm kinda sick) or what, but those last three paragraphs are just a bundle of confusion for me right now. I have heard of the book of Job, but I am not all that familiar with the "beginning," as you called it (I can tell you the basic happenings, but I have not had a chance to actually read it myself; I never've been a church-goer, and the Bible is still on my reading-list). Do you know of a website which talks a bit about what you were mentioning? It'd be greatly appreciated if you could either direct me to such a site or elaborate in another way.
Oh, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was bashing someone. >< I just have a habit of jumping into things when I see a phrase that triggers a memory from a book I've read or something. For example, the book "Atheist Manifesto," which I started reading a month ago (it's currently on hold since it is a bit tedious to read it and my reading list has at least thirty books on it, not including my summer assignments) really focuses on the social impacts of religion, and that's where I got the rant about Eve from. I guess reading that little phrase triggered the memory of reading that particular section in my brain, so I just kind of got carried away... ^^; I have a habit of getting a bit heated when writing about this stuff, so I often come across harsher than I mean to.
True, Adam is to blame as well. However, Eve happens to carry most of the responsibility for giving into temptation in the first place. If she hadn't, then she wouldn't've convinced Adam to do so as well. While I'm not saying that this is the right thing to do, it probably would spark the hatred of women in older, more patriarchal societies around the beginning of Christianity.
As for the omniscient bit, I apologise if I worded it strangely. I did not mean to say that it's impossible for God to be omniscient. It is merely impossible for God to be both omniscient and all-powerful. You can be one or the other, but you cannot be both at the same time. If you know what you are going to do in the future (omniscience), you obviously can't change it, and this makes it impossible for an omniscient being to be all-poweful. If you can change what you "foresee," then you can't really be omniscient anymore.
._. The "answer" to the rock conundrum is very strange, I'll agree. It doesn't really make much sense to me, though. How can you lift something and also be unable to lift it at the same time? If you can possibly elaborate, I would appreciate it, 'cos I'm seriously just staring blankly at the screen.
My majour point about God being "evil" (if He is omniscient) was basically about the existence of Hell; I just thought I might as well throw in evil and Satan for good measure. I've recently read a book ("Atheist Universe" by David Mills; it's quite good) that goes into whether or not Hell exists. The chapter argues that it cannot, since it would have no good purpose. Plus, God would know that most people would not make it into Heaven (if you are a Christian, then Ghandi is eternally burning in Hell simply because he was not a Christian), even if they did believe in Him, so having such a place for ETERNAL damnation just seems a bit like overkill. (There were a few other arguments against why Hell would not be like modern prisons/jails (made in order to separate the bad from the good to keep the population safe), but I am unable to remember them off the top of my head (my friend's borrowing the book).) (... Parentheses are your friends?)
>< I dunno if it's just the way my brain's working right now, the time (it's not that late, but I'm kinda sick) or what, but those last three paragraphs are just a bundle of confusion for me right now. I have heard of the book of Job, but I am not all that familiar with the "beginning," as you called it (I can tell you the basic happenings, but I have not had a chance to actually read it myself; I never've been a church-goer, and the Bible is still on my reading-list). Do you know of a website which talks a bit about what you were mentioning? It'd be greatly appreciated if you could either direct me to such a site or elaborate in another way.
Oh, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was bashing someone. >< I just have a habit of jumping into things when I see a phrase that triggers a memory from a book I've read or something. For example, the book "Atheist Manifesto," which I started reading a month ago (it's currently on hold since it is a bit tedious to read it and my reading list has at least thirty books on it, not including my summer assignments) really focuses on the social impacts of religion, and that's where I got the rant about Eve from. I guess reading that little phrase triggered the memory of reading that particular section in my brain, so I just kind of got carried away... ^^; I have a habit of getting a bit heated when writing about this stuff, so I often come across harsher than I mean to.
Member
8:02 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 221
Quote from Zubz313
Wow this has to be one of the best questions/statements I have seen in these forums. You make a lot of great observations, although I'm not entirely sure but I would guess you made the effort to read the bible. It's really funny that you mentioned Eve being the sole person responsible for the downfall of mankind, because thats exactly what adam said to God when God confronted them about the fruit. Although I won't extrapolate on the fact that even today women in many relationships take the blame for things going wrong by the man, I don't think that you can blame eve entirely for this. Temptation is temptation, I think we all have felt it at some point in our lives and I don't think there is a single person here that would say that its easy to conquer temptation every single time. Adam certainly could have said no, but he didn't. Instead he blamed eve for his predicament. How easy is it to cast blame on eveyone else except for yourself. I know I'm just as guilty.
I also must admit that there is a very interesting similarity between the pandoras box and adam and eve delimma that i never really noticed before. Sin is what came out of the disobedience, and evil is what came out of the box.
I have to admit that I don't have a very satisfying answer to your statements about God. I have asked my Bible study these same questions but I think the jist of what they told me was that the question of Can God make a rock that he cannot lift? is not correct. Because we are making an assumption of God. The assumption we are making is that God follows the same rules that we do. Does God follow the rules behind gravity. Does he obey the laws of Thermodynamics. Does he understand that you can't create something out of nothing. According to the Bible I would think not, because he did create something out of nothing. But I think that depends on whether or not you believe that the Bible is the truth and the word of God.
Lastly, I wanted to apologize to this forum and community for the statements that I have made. I certainly didn't mean to attack anybody's faith or beliefs. I wanted to simply share something that took me a long time to figure out. I'm a very grateful to the fact that you guys were so patient with me. I am certainly no saint, and I can be a real hard headed person sometimes. As you probably guessed I enjoy having these discussions because I haven't really gotten a chance to really talk with Atheists and other people that have faiths and beliefs that are different from my own. I hope you won't boot me out of this site, because of my belief of God. Because there are few sites that I know of that have such a wide variety of fun loving manga enthusiasts. Plus the fact that I love how fast this site comes out with School Rumble.
I also must admit that there is a very interesting similarity between the pandoras box and adam and eve delimma that i never really noticed before. Sin is what came out of the disobedience, and evil is what came out of the box.
I have to admit that I don't have a very satisfying answer to your statements about God. I have asked my Bible study these same questions but I think the jist of what they told me was that the question of Can God make a rock that he cannot lift? is not correct. Because we are making an assumption of God. The assumption we are making is that God follows the same rules that we do. Does God follow the rules behind gravity. Does he obey the laws of Thermodynamics. Does he understand that you can't create something out of nothing. According to the Bible I would think not, because he did create something out of nothing. But I think that depends on whether or not you believe that the Bible is the truth and the word of God.
Lastly, I wanted to apologize to this forum and community for the statements that I have made. I certainly didn't mean to attack anybody's faith or beliefs. I wanted to simply share something that took me a long time to figure out. I'm a very grateful to the fact that you guys were so patient with me. I am certainly no saint, and I can be a real hard headed person sometimes. As you probably guessed I enjoy having these discussions because I haven't really gotten a chance to really talk with Atheists and other people that have faiths and beliefs that are different from my own. I hope you won't boot me out of this site, because of my belief of God. Because there are few sites that I know of that have such a wide variety of fun loving manga enthusiasts. Plus the fact that I love how fast this site comes out with School Rumble.
Regretfully, I have not been able to find time in my schedule to read the Bible (sooo many books), but I do plan to sometime in the near future. Lately I have taken to reading a lot of literature on why people don't believe in God/have a religion, so that might be why I seem semi-knowledgable about the Bible (reading that kind of stuff leads to MANY Bible quotations). But I can see how Adam's accusation of Eve as being the cause of temptation can be considered as a normal response (blame game, as you said). Unfortunately, this accusation was probably skewed in many churches in early Christianity when gender inequality was rampant.
Yes, it's rather unfortunate that the Bible raises more questions than answers. Since it is a book and has its limits of what it contains, it obviously can be interpreted many different ways. The question that everyone wants an answer to, though, is whether or not certain parts are literal or metaphorical (Adam and Eve; Noah's Ark; etc). If people knew that for sure, then certain parts of the Bible can most likely be proven false through science (the fossil timeline discredits the story of Adam and Eve, for example). However, that's rather impossible if certain people are picking and choosing what is "true" and what is "symbolic" in the Bible... I think the world'd be a lot simpler if religion was just more straight-forward and didn't talk itself in circles.
o_o I don't think anyone would kick you off the site for stating your opinions on things. That's just absurd. But I understand your position. It's difficult to get used to explaining your position on something (especially religious views) for the first time, and the difficulty is just increased when you're trying to explain your opinions to people who completely disagree. And they do say that practise makes perfect, right? The more debates you get into, the better you can debate in the future without accidentally insulting people (yes, it is possible to accidentally insult someone; trust me). But considering how many people were attacking you (it's so difficult to be alone on a certain side of a debate), I think you handled it rather well. I can't say that I agree with everything that you said, but at least you didn't freak out and start insulting everyone left and right like some people end up doing. If I seemed like I was attacking you, I apologise; it was not my intention at all.
8:06 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 10664
xObscurexOmenx, no double posting
________________
A just ruler amongst tyrants
________________
A just ruler amongst tyrants
Member
8:11 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 221
Quote from lambchopsil
xObscurexOmenx, no double posting
I'm sorry, I guess I missed the part in the rules about posting twice in a row.
Member
8:49 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 5
i'm new to the forum, and i only read the replies till the 4th page, but this is what i think of god... To me god, or any kind of religion is simply something we use to have a peace of mind, people being unable to explain what will happen after death, and refuses to accept what they know will happen (rot and disintergrate), based on observation. With the huge amount of religion in this world, people will simply select the religion they like and go with it, then passes on the believe to their children, and as this cycle goes on eventually it becomes part of their life.
I don't really believe in god, and i hate people who think everything is predestined and that if they're destined to be a "king", they'll eventually become one with hard work. I think this is a world where the choices you make, and paths you take will decide what
you will become. Also i don't believe in the "afterlife" you only get to live once, you either get the most out of it or well... waste the opportunity.
Even if god does exist, based on what i've seen and heard on the things happening around the world, i probably still refuse to believe in him. i don't know much about the christian religion but, based on what i've read and heard, adam and eve got punished because they defied god, if god punishes people who don't believe, or obeys him, is he any different from a dictator?
and about the matter of "good" and "evil", i don't think those two things exist, it is more of a matter on moral value. For example, a murderer, when caught will most likely be punished with death or life sentence, however, what gives society the right to punish him? Yes, if we don't punish him, he'll probably kill even more people, however by killing him off, or giving him any type of punishment, wouldn't you be the same as he is? Then you'll probably justify your action by saying "but he is doing a
bad thing", that judgement is created based on your moral standard, however, the criminal also believes what he is doing is correct. does it make his action anymore incorrect then yours? theirs a reason behind everything someone does, if a criminal is created because he/she lived a f**K*d up life, then it is society who created that criminal, he/she probably have some serious mental issue or faced something that gave him/her enough motivation to commit the crime....
if you actually read all of that, well.... thanks for reading?
Last edited by Cyphir at 9:28 pm, May 15 2007
I don't really believe in god, and i hate people who think everything is predestined and that if they're destined to be a "king", they'll eventually become one with hard work. I think this is a world where the choices you make, and paths you take will decide what
you will become. Also i don't believe in the "afterlife" you only get to live once, you either get the most out of it or well... waste the opportunity.
Even if god does exist, based on what i've seen and heard on the things happening around the world, i probably still refuse to believe in him. i don't know much about the christian religion but, based on what i've read and heard, adam and eve got punished because they defied god, if god punishes people who don't believe, or obeys him, is he any different from a dictator?
and about the matter of "good" and "evil", i don't think those two things exist, it is more of a matter on moral value. For example, a murderer, when caught will most likely be punished with death or life sentence, however, what gives society the right to punish him? Yes, if we don't punish him, he'll probably kill even more people, however by killing him off, or giving him any type of punishment, wouldn't you be the same as he is? Then you'll probably justify your action by saying "but he is doing a
bad thing", that judgement is created based on your moral standard, however, the criminal also believes what he is doing is correct. does it make his action anymore incorrect then yours? theirs a reason behind everything someone does, if a criminal is created because he/she lived a f**K*d up life, then it is society who created that criminal, he/she probably have some serious mental issue or faced something that gave him/her enough motivation to commit the crime....
if you actually read all of that, well.... thanks for reading?
Last edited by Cyphir at 9:28 pm, May 15 2007
Member
10:01 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 267
@ xObscurexOmenx
i'll have to check out that book u mentioned. and i understand those assignments lol....*sigh* such a hassle school is.
the last few paragraphs i gave are just something i took note of and pieced together. the book of Job starts off talking about the "Sons of God" meeting with God. Satan meets with him and mentions that Job is a blessed man etc. in a jist God lets satan do things to Job that basically screw up his life completely. he can't kill him but everything else is fair game. That is what i was referring to as the beginning of it. i'll also state that it is basically stated here that satan can do w/e he wants to those on earth. FYI job is the book right before psalms- you know... it was plastered all over Le Chevalier D'eon haha. ok back on topic
As for hell. i don't believe the "Hell" That people refer to actually exist or will exist. there is no such thing as burning in flames forever. u burn and u die. a punishment forever and ever as the bible states is a bit cruel. i think religion over plays certain aspects of the bible. it's not like anyone has experienced it etc
The bible is kinda iffy on that eternal damnation bit. it mentions satan etc being Tormented forever and ever but at the same time the "lake of fire" is considered the second death. the second death is seen as the ultimate death which there is no return. If it is the second death how can u be tormented forever? weird stuff in the bible. frankly i am gonna be honest. i haven't studied the bible in years so i can't say much on revelation and the like- just in case u don't know revelations is the book with all the fire and brimstone talk.- the last book of the bible.
in any case i would be more than happy to answer any questions within my knowledge. just PM me.
**on the all powerful bit. with him being all knowing wouldn't that mean he COULD change it but refuses to. i mean. its not like God doesn't have a choice in his actions.
the rock thing is a bit confusing. i guess if u look at it in like unrealistic terms. think of it like say there is a box. this box is solid metal. extremely heavy. now say that same box properties has been changed. it is now wood and hollow.being all powerful one should be able to do something of this nature. i know crappy example but eh...w.e lol - i feel like i just rambled again....*blah*
@cyphir
wtf?
ur last paragraph especially pissed me off. Morals have nothing to do with rules of society. In the case that my Sister or Mother perhaps were raped. i would have no regret after killing the person who did it. just because i think that person deserved to be killed doesn't mean that i am in the right. and i would like to state that in the case of my arrest i wouldn't say it was unlawful. society is based off of rules. which everyone in it knows. what is "Right" and "wrong" to a person is influenced from upbringing but where the hell do u get the idea that one could get away with what they see as right without facing the consequences based on societal standards.
you say everone has a choice but haven't accepted the fact that that choice includes doing something they know will be punishable. if you are going to do it. don't get caught. a simple enough concept. one will not be judged if the matter is never brought to attention. you say who gives us the right to judge someones actions? If one wants to live with society then they must abide by the rules. your "sad lifed" criminal can get the hell away from people if they don't want to except it.
what a great statement u had going. "I'm gonna kill you. its my right to do w/e i please since you don't have the right to judge me". Lame.
AND in the case that someone has had a crapped out life. the fact is they still have a choice. if they snap cause of the circumstances or can't handle it. then frankly that is their own weakness. in those cases you either toughen up or crack.
________________
HUBBY of DUBBY
i'll have to check out that book u mentioned. and i understand those assignments lol....*sigh* such a hassle school is.
the last few paragraphs i gave are just something i took note of and pieced together. the book of Job starts off talking about the "Sons of God" meeting with God. Satan meets with him and mentions that Job is a blessed man etc. in a jist God lets satan do things to Job that basically screw up his life completely. he can't kill him but everything else is fair game. That is what i was referring to as the beginning of it. i'll also state that it is basically stated here that satan can do w/e he wants to those on earth. FYI job is the book right before psalms- you know... it was plastered all over Le Chevalier D'eon haha. ok back on topic
As for hell. i don't believe the "Hell" That people refer to actually exist or will exist. there is no such thing as burning in flames forever. u burn and u die. a punishment forever and ever as the bible states is a bit cruel. i think religion over plays certain aspects of the bible. it's not like anyone has experienced it etc
The bible is kinda iffy on that eternal damnation bit. it mentions satan etc being Tormented forever and ever but at the same time the "lake of fire" is considered the second death. the second death is seen as the ultimate death which there is no return. If it is the second death how can u be tormented forever? weird stuff in the bible. frankly i am gonna be honest. i haven't studied the bible in years so i can't say much on revelation and the like- just in case u don't know revelations is the book with all the fire and brimstone talk.- the last book of the bible.
in any case i would be more than happy to answer any questions within my knowledge. just PM me.
**on the all powerful bit. with him being all knowing wouldn't that mean he COULD change it but refuses to. i mean. its not like God doesn't have a choice in his actions.
the rock thing is a bit confusing. i guess if u look at it in like unrealistic terms. think of it like say there is a box. this box is solid metal. extremely heavy. now say that same box properties has been changed. it is now wood and hollow.being all powerful one should be able to do something of this nature. i know crappy example but eh...w.e lol - i feel like i just rambled again....*blah*
@cyphir
wtf?
ur last paragraph especially pissed me off. Morals have nothing to do with rules of society. In the case that my Sister or Mother perhaps were raped. i would have no regret after killing the person who did it. just because i think that person deserved to be killed doesn't mean that i am in the right. and i would like to state that in the case of my arrest i wouldn't say it was unlawful. society is based off of rules. which everyone in it knows. what is "Right" and "wrong" to a person is influenced from upbringing but where the hell do u get the idea that one could get away with what they see as right without facing the consequences based on societal standards.
you say everone has a choice but haven't accepted the fact that that choice includes doing something they know will be punishable. if you are going to do it. don't get caught. a simple enough concept. one will not be judged if the matter is never brought to attention. you say who gives us the right to judge someones actions? If one wants to live with society then they must abide by the rules. your "sad lifed" criminal can get the hell away from people if they don't want to except it.
what a great statement u had going. "I'm gonna kill you. its my right to do w/e i please since you don't have the right to judge me". Lame.
AND in the case that someone has had a crapped out life. the fact is they still have a choice. if they snap cause of the circumstances or can't handle it. then frankly that is their own weakness. in those cases you either toughen up or crack.
________________
HUBBY of DUBBY
Member
11:24 pm, May 15 2007
Posts: 101
The whole can God make a rock so heavy that he himself cannot lift it is a funny question. How can God makes something more powerful than he is? It kind of reminds me of the whole infinity-plus-one thing. xD
But anyway, all these accusations don't necessarily have anything to do with the existence of God but rather how much truth the bible holds. And if the bible is lying than the way the world developed is based on a lie which means no one knows what truth is. The truth we know is all created through manipulation, if not religion(which is also brought into existence by an individual) than of some persons... then no one quite knows what real truth is so therefore questioning the bible does not question the existence of God.
Reminds me of Aristotle's Cave Allegory ne...
But anyway, all these accusations don't necessarily have anything to do with the existence of God but rather how much truth the bible holds. And if the bible is lying than the way the world developed is based on a lie which means no one knows what truth is. The truth we know is all created through manipulation, if not religion(which is also brought into existence by an individual) than of some persons... then no one quite knows what real truth is so therefore questioning the bible does not question the existence of God.
Reminds me of Aristotle's Cave Allegory ne...
Inquisitor
Member
1:06 am, May 16 2007
Posts: 612
Quote from Cyphir
and about the matter of "good" and "evil", i don't think those two things exist, it is more of a matter on moral value. For example, a murderer, when caught will most likely be punished with death or life sentence, however, what gives society the right to punish him? Yes, if we don't punish him, he'll probably kill even more people, however by killing him off, or giving him any type of punishment, wouldn't you be the same as he is? Then you'll probably justify your action by saying "but he is doing a
bad thing", that judgement is created based on your moral standard, however, the criminal also believes what he is doing is correct. does it make his action anymore incorrect then yours? theirs a reason behind everything someone does, if a criminal is created because he/she lived a f**K*d up life, then it is society who created that criminal, he/she probably have some serious mental issue or faced something that gave him/her enough motivation to commit the crime....
bad thing", that judgement is created based on your moral standard, however, the criminal also believes what he is doing is correct. does it make his action anymore incorrect then yours? theirs a reason behind everything someone does, if a criminal is created because he/she lived a f**K*d up life, then it is society who created that criminal, he/she probably have some serious mental issue or faced something that gave him/her enough motivation to commit the crime....
that's a very good idea....i agree with you about the good and evil arguement, 'cause to me, "pure" and "tainted" are just 2 sides of the same coins...doing the right thing or the wrong thing is depend on your point of view...i mean, you can't have a society where everyone will be benefits at the same time...there's always a negative side to everything...doing the "right" or "wrong" thing are merely 2 different ways to fulfill one's desire...i mean, no one would really do something unless it's beneficial to them....
people say that cannibalism is an inhuman and immoral thing to do, but then in a situation where you have to choose between life - eating your own kind, or death - rather dying than eating your own kind, i would think that most people will choose to be cannibals...i'm a realistic person...i don't believe in shits about valueing your honor or dignity or something than your own life (samurai?)....however honored, dignified, noble, brave, and chilvary it is to die doing the "right" thing, in the end, you're still death, and that's a little too permanent for me (quoted from book 3 of the bartimaeus trilogy)....we're merely human...a weak race that turns out to be smarter than the rest after the phases of evolution, but stil just another kind of animal....there's still the survival instinc in all of us, so i actually don't blame people who have to eat other people to survive (given the situation that they're starved, desperated, and there're no other food source available)....
even though i believe in karma, i would like to think that there's no afterlife....there's just this permanent and quick death for everyone, regardless of what they've done before they die....i would rather think that death is a form of right....a form of privilage a human being had gotten since birth....hmm....think of life as a train...you have to get off somewhere for another person to get in.....a person dying would gives a chance for another being to survive, considering that'd freed up more space and air for a newborn....
now what's that have to do with ethical stuff?. i have no idea....so getting back to the point, the "bad" people must've had a difficult childhood of somekind...they're just basically what back what society had inflicted on them in the first place...it's all about how we are raised, because you were not born "evil" or "good", just your environment shapes you the way you are right now....
Last edited by Cerulean at 1:14 am, May 16 2007
________________
The Deviant
Member
8:19 am, May 16 2007
Posts: 246
@xObscurexOmenx
Thanks alot for your kind words. I appreciate the fact that even tho we have different beliefs that we can still discuss things and be able to think about the other person's position. This is a really good lesson for me, that I can't expect everyone to be willing to listen since this is a very personal issue.
In regards to the Atheistist Manifesto's take that nobody would be able to get into heaven, I have to say I and the Bible completely 100% agree. The fact is the standard for heaven is perfection. God is perfect and quite frankly no human being is perfect. God is a God of Justice. In america if we break the law we have to pay a penalty. This is no exception to God's law as well. Unfortunately sin gives us seperation from God which is a spiritual Death Penalty. But God knows that no one is good enough to make it to heaven not even Ghandi with all his good works as the Manefesto points out but he loves us too much to let us go. He basically took the spiritual electic chair in our place. The law was satisfied and we can finally be able to go back to God. It is an absolutely mindblowing Gift, that anyone would throw their life away for us. But like any good gift we can choose not take it, and tell him we can pay the price by ourselves.
Thanks alot for your kind words. I appreciate the fact that even tho we have different beliefs that we can still discuss things and be able to think about the other person's position. This is a really good lesson for me, that I can't expect everyone to be willing to listen since this is a very personal issue.
In regards to the Atheistist Manifesto's take that nobody would be able to get into heaven, I have to say I and the Bible completely 100% agree. The fact is the standard for heaven is perfection. God is perfect and quite frankly no human being is perfect. God is a God of Justice. In america if we break the law we have to pay a penalty. This is no exception to God's law as well. Unfortunately sin gives us seperation from God which is a spiritual Death Penalty. But God knows that no one is good enough to make it to heaven not even Ghandi with all his good works as the Manefesto points out but he loves us too much to let us go. He basically took the spiritual electic chair in our place. The law was satisfied and we can finally be able to go back to God. It is an absolutely mindblowing Gift, that anyone would throw their life away for us. But like any good gift we can choose not take it, and tell him we can pay the price by ourselves.
