This logic sounds very faulty. A life is a life, isn't it? That's like a cannibal eating a larger man rather than a skinny one. Sort of like Hansel and Gretel I suppose. The witch tries to fatten them up before eating them.

The other reason why I believe eating meat is completely unnecessary is because of something I learnt in 10th grade. The source of all energy is the sun. The plants convert about 1% of solar energy into food and convert it into starch. When these plants are consumed by the primary consumers, some amount of it gets lost to the environment of heat. Still more of the remaining energy is lost in performing essential functions like digestion and growth. An average of only 10% of the energy intake is converted into the primary consumer's body and available for consumption. The secondary consumers get 10% of this energy. Essentially what I mean to say is that more and more energy is lost as the food chain proceeds further. The secondary consumers, under which humans tend to fall, get the least amount of energy.

Have you ever seen an obese animal (disregard domesticated animals)? Most probably not. Humans are the animals who tend to be obese more often than not. Other animals kill only in order to survive. A tiger, a wolf, a lion, anything kills ONLY if it is hungry or in danger. Do humans do that? No. We are the highest order of species in the food chain. More evolved in every manner, and thus have the right to lord this superiority over other animals and exploit them. How is it any more different than slavery?

Animals may not have the IQ to become scientists. But, they do have certain emotions. Why else would a mother cat be so protective of her kittens? The shepherd or poultry farmer wouldn't be able to tame his herd if not for the fear of the stick he has instilled in them.

What I resent about non vegetarianism is that we don't need it in order to survive (whereas we do need to kill plants for survival). If it had been an absolute necessary quota for survival even I would change my vegetarian habits. However in today's world everything's available everywhere because of superior technology. Vegetarianism can provide more nutrients than non vegetarianism, if not more, when it is implemented in the right manner. If you are still following the American way of eating while being a vegetarian/vegan, then perish the thought. You are going to acquire all sorts of deficiencies.

I intended to refrain from going on a rant before. However your snide comments almost everywhere in the forum made me see red.


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No, it's like cannibal eating a fat man instead of 5 skinny ones.

So you don't understand the concept of personal attachment? You don't love anyone? You'd just as readily kill your own parents than you would a crazy murderer? I'm not saying you'd kill anyone, but if you put them on a scale, does your parents/spouse/children etc. weight the same as some random person, possibly someone you'd consider a very bad person?

I can understand that you don't think of meat as food if you haven't eaten any from birth. If you were referring to me with that part about plants (as several have pointed it out), read my post again. It was a counterargument and has nothing to do with my opinion.

As for you opinion about eating a dear friend, I can understand that too, as a concept. And while in reality it's by a rule a perversion, that doesn't mean it's not possible for it to be anything else. But religiously I find very little where it works. Of course, that doesn't apply if you're an atheist or something like that.


Well I don't know about American, but unless you've first hand experience, and even then, I'm very sceptical about what you say. Cows are made to have babies to produce milk? Um... that's how it works. It's natural for cows to have babies, that's what cows do. What's so horrible about that? That's how you get meat cattle and more dairy cattle, and milk.

About differing opinions. I didn't give any opinions. I was taking into account the more vs. fewer lives aspect. It's also possible to view fish as lower species of beings as mammals, of course.

And for you "humans are ridiculous"—are you serious? You are a human. Or do you consider yourself to be a higher entity that can look down on the "ridiculous" activities of humans? Then what are you here for? No wait, that was stupid of me. You're in your teens, in the process where your brain is maturing and you feel disassociated from the society (more than likely). I can understand that. But consider this: it's you who projects that ridiculousness to the doings of other people. The motives of others cannot be understood by staying aloof and looking down on concepts you are not interested in because you don't try to understand them.


Exactly. Besides a Buddhist eating animal flesh is not equal to a Buddhist eating human flesh.

EDIT: Also, some animals kill for the fun of it, some individual cases, yes, but it's also characteristic to certain species. Animals also fight and sometimes kill for territory, for breeding partners etc. You said cats protect their children? Yes, they also play with their pray before killing it. If they're not hungry they might still play with it and then kill it, eat a little and leave it. Animals will only kill for survival is right as long as they only need to survive. When they have more than enough food that doesn't mean they won't kill more than necessary.


This is just total bullshit. A humans can lead a fine and healthy life without ever eating anything but meat. Traditional Eskimo diet consists of exclusively meat or fish, often either or, not both. Perfect teeth and bones, not significant health problems and so forth. And both meat and vegetable diet can be equally good if it's used properly. Vegetarianism being healthier is bullshit, it's just about not eating junk food and such.


Why thank you. Just note that I didn't give any of my own opinions in my previous post if I remember correctly, which is how it is usually. You can see all the red you want my dear, I don't much care either way. I mean, if seeing red is what you do when you see arguments you don't agree with. I find your conduct illogical, but then, I don't really try to understand it either.

Last edited by 狂気 at 3:35 pm, Mar 13 2014

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Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

No they are forced to have babies more than normal to constantly produce milk, pump full of hormone or vitamins and hooked up to machines for extended periods of time. I can find a video probably. There are places where they are nice to animals though, it's just harder to find when it's more cost efficient to be evil and most Americans don't care about taste.

I am 24 and I don't like humans, myself included, or rather I don't like that fact that I am human. But I can't prove my age can I?

Coming from a family where generations upon generations of ancestors have been vegetarians I disagree. I also live in a state where 70% of the population (if not more) does not even eat eggs, let alone meat. You just aren't aware of the possibilities of a vegetarian diet, which are vast. And I can't explain it within a simple para.

And excuse me, but I eat a ton of junk food, all vegetarian. Just a random trivia. The Indian McDonald's menu is 50% vegetarian. Even KFC offers vegetarian options in India. Every other major fast food chain that you might have seen offers vegetarian options in India. Otherwise, all of these chains would be at a severe loss.

EDIT: I realise that I interpreted your words wrong now that I see my own reply later. My fault completely. However, I was just trying to point out that you can live without eating meat unless you have absolutely no other options. eg. Andes plane crash 1972. Unless i see substantial proof, I can't ever be convinced that a non vegetarian diet provides nutrients which a vegetarian diet can't. I haven't seen it yet, but I can be proved wrong.



Opinions are more than welcome on the forum. That's what it exists for, right? Your opinions might have just been the arguments of the defendant -correct me if I am wrong - but they seemed very condescending. You might be superior in your way of thinking and correct as well. But, that doesn't give you this right.

Anyway, I know I have been very rude and I apologise.

Last edited by bakerygirl at 6:04 am, Mar 14 2014

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i love vegetables but if u try to take my meat away i will fight u

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WEBTOONS ヽ( ★ω★)ノ

My point exactly. Vegetarian diet can be healthy and complete. Then again, it can be unhealthy too. By simply not eating meat your diet is not necessarily becoming healthier and is likely to become unhealthier. But vegetarian diet can be healthy. Same thing for an all meat diet. And a mixed diet. Healthy diet is healthy and unhealthy is unhealthy regardless whether you eat meat or vegetables or both. This is what I'm trying to say, I hope I was clear enough.

What I meant by the junk food remark, I meant the arguments that suddenly giving up on meat and going vegetarian making one healthy is bullshit. That's true in the cases when giving up meat means going from eating almost exclusively junk food to eating fresh food and paying attention to what you put in your mouth. Of course it's healthier, but it's got nothing to do with not eating meat. Also, junk food and fast food are not synonyms.


You're missing the point. Sure, in this post and the last I've given my opinions, but the post before that, as I said in my last post, I didn't give my personal opinions. I was only bringing other viewpoints in the matter. For example I told what Dalai Lama does, the possibility of taking into account more vs. less lives or lower vs. higher life forms. I didn't say a word about what is my view on the matter.

The question it was supposed to arise is whether you think taking several lives when you could only take one is more important (eating a couple small fishes for lunch, or eating one pig for what, a month?) or whether you think fishes are lower life forms and it doesn't matter if they are used as food, whereas pigs are higher life form and worth dozens or more fish lives.

When a conversation is starting to be simple minded it's good to arise new perspectives and discuss them, lest it becomes just pointless self-gratification, masturbation. That is what was the point of that post.


Well, as I said, I don't know about Americans. But I'm still very sceptical about your statement. Activists are well versed in the art of white propaganda and minds who like to believe in certain things are not very difficult to persuade into believing them.

Anyway, cows produce a specific amount of milk. It's related to their health, food and natural capacities. Milking them for longer periods of time have no effect in the amount of milk the produce. Certainly, I'm no expert and if someone knows better they're welcome to enlighten me. Though of course it's given that not everyone treats animals as well and some animals live in bad conditions. But I do doubt it's anywhere near as common as you make it out to be.

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Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

Didn't know that pigs could last that much Both pigs and fishes rate the same in my book. Neither is above the other.

However I do think I am biased in this matter. I have killed dozens of mosquitoes and ants. Are they lower life forms because they are small? Quite probably not. But because they are small and unable to voice their opinion I don't feel guilty over killing them. On the other hand the things that we do eat such as fishes and pigs do express their fear. Which would make me feel guilty if I killed them.


Yup. I understand. I am truly sorry for what I said before.



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Ah well, in fact, I really don't care... I ultimately think that they are all just the same. It would be unfair otherwise. However, I also admit that I do intact rely on my likes and dislikes for judgement. Once upon a time I thought things should be fair whatever the case, but I realized there's no right or wrong. That in itself may be right or wrong, but it's much less contradicting, not to mention easier, to just admit and give in that I do as I like.

Now, my point is, it is all the same. HOWEVER, I am unfair and greedy, and I will be, and I WILL demand that what I like stays that way. Basically, yes, I have sentiments, granted not the same as yours. Whom I like compared to strangers, they are the same. The only thing different is my opinion. Thus, I would not CHOOSE between them, there's nothing to choose from from the start. I wouldn't do a thing for the stranger whether or not someone I like is put on the scale. It doesn't concern me, I stay out of their business.

As for your accusing of me being a crazy murderer... you probably are partially right. I'd never have the guts to kill someone, or probably anything for that matter, but I simply don't care. I wouldn't care if my parents dropped dead, or anyone I knew dropped dead. Or even if I myself dropped dead. At least, not sentimentally. I know from experience that simply didn't feel a thing. It's the same as watching someone die on TV. Simply knowing them does not separate them from strangers. Some stranger I took a liking on just might weigh heavier than a family member. Blood relationships don't mean a thing on my opinion, though I do value it in a different way.

Now, if this is compared to a bad person... it still won't mean a thing. "Bad" person, which for extreme cases I believe you would consider murderers, they are nothing but strangers. I don't take justice into my hands. I'm not a supporter of "no one deserves to die" kind of thing, but they are all the same if I don't have a specific opinion on them. Things changed if they just so happens to be the enemy of who I like. Simply being bad doesn't automatically make me dislike them, and being good... that has even less effect to make me automatically like them. A better example would probably be, I would choose the pretty person across the street over the ugly person across the street. That would never happen, since I would choose neither of them, but in a if scenario, yes. Appearance might not always be everything, but they do a lot for first impressions.

I suppose I should clarify though, what happened was in grade school, specifically, when I was around 9 or 10. Now, what would you say to that innocent girl who just didn't understand? She was taught nothing else after all, blame my parents for brainwashing me. I mean, you don't eat your pet, why should you eat anything else? Yes, I probably have a much healthier personality back then, since now, I'd most likely instead mean "you eat other animals, why not eat your pet?"

As for your comment on the religious thing... I am technically a Buddhist, as I've mentioned I was from a religious family. But I do think my thinking is probably closer to being an atheist. But yes, I meant that as a concept, probably one you'd more likely see in mangas than in real life. I doubt the society would allow such a thing. On a side note, that what-was-it country that fed corpses to vultures? 天葬 or whatever the English equivalent is, I think that is very effective. And to be respected. Then again, on health issues, I know too little to say what it does to the environment.

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I can't tip my fedora enough for all of this. : DDDDD

You mean last as in have enough meat for month or last as in meat to keep for a month? If former, consider if you get 80 kg of meat from a pig. That's over 2½ kg per day for a month. Even if meat you get from a pig was less, if there's only one person to eat it should be enough. But that was a rough estimate anyway.

If you meant the latter, of course, you'll need to put the meat in a freezer (or salt it or something). I'd imagine meat lasts well for several months in a freezer, and probably even over a year before you might consider it spoiled. Depends on how much fat there is of course as fat doesn't keep as well, and the nutrients that are in fat really are there only in fresh meat. On the other hand completely fresh meat is a bit tough and freezing it will tenderise it. The best beef is always hung meat (dry aged) to tenderise it.

If pigs and fish rate the same for you, then the logic you said was faulty works well here. If you kill a pig and store the meat, you can eat from it for a month or several months. If you eat fish instead you'd need dozens of fish during that time. That's taking one life versus taking dozens.

As for killing mosquitoes versus killing fish or pigs. It's a matter of sympathy, really. Things like mosquitoes are so far from us that it's difficult to impossible to sympathise with their actions and feelings—in fact, sympathising with their instincts as I doubt there's much feelings there, but who knows...


No offence taken.


Reading comprehension? When did I ever accuse you of being anything?


You above statements still don't clarify this. Why would you eat your pet if you had other food available? Even if there would be no sentiment, even if you wouldn't feel bad for your pet dying, this still seems illogical. It's yours. If you don't kill and eat your parent, why would you kill and eat your pet? This in the scenario where other food is readily available. It's another thing what you thought as a child.


I'd say it's closer to being nihilistic. Your thinking does contain clearly Buddhist features, although you arrive to different (thought similar) conclusions.


That would read "sky burial". Don't know if there's an actual English equivalent. It's a Tibetan Buddhist thing. So in Tibet and some surrounding areas and Mongolia, for whatever extent it's still continued.


I try to avoid getting into these conversations for obvious reasons. As a side note... No, wait. As the main point, perhaps. Is that just a figure of speech (just, I mean—that is, just a, not a just, nor unjust for that matter) or do you actually wear a fedora?

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Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

It's a figure of speech.

Well damn, I thought fedora would suit you. Although, I might be just a tad too costumeish. Depends...

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Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

That's what I meant as well. Hard to sympathise with things which are even smaller than your thumb nail, if they do have any feelings.


Unfortunately I can't share this viewpoint. The thought of killing and eating things whose emotions are quite apparent makes me squirm. A murderer is a murderer whether he kills a single person or a hundred, right? Just an analogy. This is, of course, a personal opinion. I don't want to force any one to change his/her habits. To each his own.


Glad that someone is enjoying this ^^ Personally, I take a lot of time to prepare myself and enter this thread to read the posts. They take a lot of time to digest and comprehend

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Okay so... I not gonna bother with the quotes.

First of all, really, did I get on your nerves somehow? I know I do the same a lot, but seriously, don't prick at everything I say. Actually, I was doing it where you quoted me lol. Yea, you got on my nerves a bit and I'm talking with some thorns then. Couldn't quite agree with half you said. I'll apologize if I overdid it. Now, please leave it at that or else we'll end up starting a flame war.

I'm no specialist who knows every religion, I was born Buddhist so I am influenced. I have never heard of nihilistic until now. Blame my lack of vocabulary if you will. It's not completely accurate, but still, I guess there's times and parts I think that way. Life is life and that's just that. Meaningless or not, there's nothing to say about it, it just is. But I still wouldn't allege myself to nihilistic, or Buddhist and atheist for that matter. I was saying "closer" to, not am. I don't necessarily believe in any gods, but I don't deny most either. Just that, I definitely strayed from the traditional Buddhism faith.

As for the pet thing. I'm trying to say that if you don't eat your pet, don't eat any meat at all. Or at least, that was what I was saying back then. Humans live without meat. I know ppl say things about health issues, I cannot confirm whether that is actually true or not, but I do know that that classmate in particular is perfectly healthy. Of course, you wouldn't want to kill your pet if you liked it. But at the same time, why would you want to kill perfectly good strangers? o.O Then again, some might think the other way and that they eat their pet because it's their pet. I can see that happening in some corner of the world too, which I do think is actually more logical. I for one, am certainly considering my options in regards to your parent to pet comparison...

Yes, it does mean sky burial for literal translation, I don't know if that's the term, but yes I do mean that. Couldn't remember which country it was from the top of my head. It's still practiced, I heard from my mom that there was some guy that requested it actually. Whole lot of trouble, but the guy got what he wished and got shipped to Tibet or somewhere. Probably happens much less than historical times, but it's still there.

Last edited by reanmeih at 10:43 am, Mar 16 2014

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