I would like to see some evidence of that. Proof speaks much louder to me than a mere statement.
I'm not about to search Wikileaks for information(Hey, I'd rather read manga with the free time)

And I think you are really stretching with the hero nonsense, there are much better role models out there. Much better role models.( Irena Sendler for example)

Assange seems to be too much of a douche/attentionwhore to ever be more than a tool. And I think those rape charges he's received are bullshit.

All off your chest now, tartfo?

While I broadly agree with you, I think we should be careful in building Assange up too high. He's important and doing a good job - but he isn't the sole cause of all this good new free information going on. Have you read the Q&A he did for The Guardian yesterday? He says himself that the credit he gets is undeserved, and that Wikileaks was originally meant to stay faceless.

He's doing a good job and he's a great symbol to rally around, but the Wikileaks organisation and the people who leak the material to them are just as/more important. I think it's a bit of a pity that it's become 'Julian Assange does <thing>!', when it's actually a whole bunch of people doing the thing.

You don't even take time off to read front page news? Haven't you noticed that mainstream news sources focus mainly on leaks that are most harmful to Iran, China, and North Korea?

On China, it focuses on some quote by *US sources* that top levels of Chinese gov't ordered the cyber attack that Google was complaining about.

On Iran, the news mostly reports how Arab nations want Iran to be bombed, basically isolating Iran.

On North Korea, it suggests that the US is right, and that not even China supports North Korea.

The Wikileaks were originally mentioned to be 2.7 million cables, mostly about the US. That was cut down to about 250K. So 90% of it was lost. (US censorship?) And the stuff that was released isn't even reported in its entirety by the media. Mostly just the stuff the US gov't would have wanted us to hear anyway.

If you're just going to be lazy about it, then your rushed conclusions about how Wikileaks is biased against the US in favour of China and Russia have no merit! You're just basing it on, as you put it yourself, "feelings"... These are the same kind of feelings that were fed to most of us by a lifetime's worth of propaganda and indoctrination.



"Douche" and "attentionwhore". I keep hearing that from different puppets who have no room for argument. Supposing Assange really was a douche (even though you probably know nothing about him outside his involvement with Wikileaks). What does that have to do with his ACTIONS right now, and how the free world is responding to that?

The FREE WORLD is forcing different corporations to cut funding to Wikileaks. PayPal just recently cut funding.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/04/paypal-internet-ba cklash-wikileaks
US gov't is literally tracing the funds going to a SWISS SITE (Wikileaks is CH domain now; they were forced to switch), and forcing donaters to cut funding.

Assange is charged with bullshit...I mean "rape", he's wanted by the "free world". And many people are calling him a terrorist and calling for his assassination.

Hillary Clinton denounced Wikileaks when... just a while ago, she was bitching about China's lack of freedom of information!! WTF, do these people have no shame?

Those who don't want to sound as fanatical, but still sheepish and have nothing to add, just call him a "attention-hungry douche", because they feel obligated to support their respective countries no matter what. This is all stuff that we Americans used to criticize China over. Most Chinese don't care about their dissidents and think they are either spies or "attention-hungry douchebags". Truth.

How are these responses/reactions to this Wikileaks fiasco from "THE FREE WORLD" anything but repugnant?

I guess the US and China have always been alike, we were just less honest about it, and needed someone like Assange to reveal our darker side.

Tell me, do you have any more to add besides "he's a douche"? What do you think he's doing that's wrong? I'd like to know what it is explicitly.

Last edited by N0x_ at 6:33 pm, Dec 4 2010

I'm not asking about NK or Iran. I'm asking about Russia and China.

And China isn't good enough. I want a chinese source. Not US sources on China. And links please. You are welcome to link to a Document at Wikileaks.

You can say all you want about me only basing my opinion on my feelings, but I still would like EVIDENCE. That was the whole point of my original post. I wanted someone to show me documentation from Wikileaks detailing intelligence on Russia and China. NOT from the US, but from Russia and China themselves. I ask you guys since I figured being fans, you would know where to find it at a much faster rate than I could.




Those too comments had more to do with CALLING him a hero than anything he's actually done. Compared to actual heroes(Like say, MLK Jr or Irena Sendler) he IS a tool.

Where did I say he was doing wrong?

Also, I doubt those rape charged he's received are political much. I just think he scorned a woman and now she's after his ass and she doesn't care how, but figured with the heat he's now catching, this would be the best time.

Last edited by lambchopsil at 6:54 pm, Dec 4 2010

I actually wouldn't call Julian Assange a hero or role-model whatsoever. Not only do I think what he's done is wrong, but he wasn't even one of the key roles in getting the information. From what I've heard, a soldier in the army that was stationed in Baghdad got a usb drive, walked into the information room, got the information in front of dozens of soldiers, and then walked off. Julian Assange only posted the info on Wikileaks.

And although I really don't think a random australian should be messing around with the US's corruption and problems, this whole leak was the fault of the US military stationed in Baghdad. They were supposed to check and search all members of the army who entered the facility but instead they thought "Oh, you already passed all the screening and are one of us. You probably won't do something bad here in the SUPER IMPORTANT INFORMATION ROOM." So the guards didn't bother asking any questions (to my belief it was around 2 am) and so this soldier saved all the classified information and walked out in front of everybody. So if you hail what Wikileaks has found out, its not due to what Julian Assange did at all. It was the soldier who is probably facing a trial for something like treason.

And if Julian Assange really thought he was doing something okay and right, why is he hiding in airports around the world giving interviews through only Skype? Although the rape allegation could be the reason. Either way he should just step out into the sunlight and let all his fans save him. I actually think the US government can't touch him because what he did wasn't technically illegal.


So no he's not a hero (but i sorta do understand why everyone wants the truth behind things, myself included) and if you do believe what he did was ok, then praise the people who actually did the work.

Asking people for evidence when you don't even have the context is a bit lazy.

This latest batch of Wikileaks are primarily from US cables. Whistle-blowers in the Western world use Wikileaks. Other countries use their own form of leaks (which get their own responses from their own respective gov'ts).

Do you use Chinese BBSs? They don't use US forums and media either.

If you didn't even think or look this far, it's likely that you just wanted to make a snarky point against Wikileaks, but otherwise didn't really care.

i just have the strongest feeling that if they do release the bank info Julian really will be a dead man walking...

________________
"when i'm sad, i stop being sad and be awesome instead."
- Barney Stinson

Those charges were already repealed before... they were brought back more or less explicitly as a means of detaining him after the latest leak. Regardless of what you think about him, there really isn't any validity behind this particular claim.

As to the whole Russia/China thing, I do not believe Wikileaks has released any classified documents from those governing entities (the sources have been entirely from the US, though I have no doubts that if a Chinese/Russian source popped up Wikileaks would happily release it). However, you're making a number of mistakes here. The most obvious one is that any government would want Assange and anyone else affiliated with wikileaks gone if they released anything remotely incriminating and factual about their government. This has definitely been the case for China, and although I'd have to double-check the Russian entries, I'm 99% positive that is for that government as well. I'm sure they want him just as badly.

However, this whole "OMGWTFRUSSIAANDCHINAAREGOINGTOKILLUSALL " Cold War style rhetoric is really baseless and meaningless. Russia is not the nation the Soviet Union was, and China is reliant upon the rest of the world if it wants to maintain its economic growth. It's a common mistake to think in extreme terms because of years of propaganda to that effect, but if you ask the majority of actual political scientists who understand the situation in the world (conservative or liberal, it really doesn't matter) they'd tell you that those claims are largely baseless. China and Russia are certainly more authoritarian than the US, but the difference isn't as dramatic as it's made out to be, and neither really represents a realistic military threat anyway.

Assange isn't a hero. He doesn't want to be, and I think he had a choice in the matter he probably wouldn't want the reputation that he's gotten. The reality is that he's just an instigator of a stage in the information revolution which was bound to occur eventually, it didn't have to be Assange. There are plenty of people out there who would have eventually done the same. Wikileaks was just the first. We'll see more of these organizations popping up in the future, and aside from shutting down the internet entirely, there's really not much of anything that anyone can do about it.

________________

Reviews of my Work:
You are kind of boring - Blackorion
Congratulations! Ur an asshole! - tokyo_homi
Your awesome!!! - Cherelle_Ashley
NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

Non sequitur. Just one-upsmanship.

Going further... Compared to Assange, maybe others like Liu Xiaobo, Eugene Debs, etc ARE tools. Compared to MLK Jr or Irena, maybe Assange is a tool. Compared to the saviour... JESUS... MLK and Irena ARE tools.

WTF is a "tool" to you anyway? What has Assange done to be a tool or douchebag?

[quote=N0x_]

well alot of people want him killed for "espionage/sabotaging", but he really hasnt posted anything to serious yet just things that people kinda guessed what was going on, and he posted evidence that confirmed it


________________
"when i'm sad, i stop being sad and be awesome instead."
- Barney Stinson

Yeah, that's what bothered me most about his comment.

Assange is a tool for "espionage and sabotaging".

Earlier on, he made a snarky remark about China and Russia, because of what they do to spies/saboteurs. Do these kinds of people not see the hypocrisy?

You know the excuse the Chinese gov't uses to lock up dissidents? Their "state secrets law".

Trov on one hand calls Assange a "tool", "douchebag", "attention-whore". Maybe he's angry about Assange's "espionage" and "sabotaging" against the US... releasing to the public our own "state secrets". Just like so many other Americans. Just like some of those Chinese ultranationalists we here in the US criticize and ridicule.

Personally, i don't think the info released by Wikileaks is anything new. But the response it got from a lot of us... is a moment of truth. Seeing so many people like Trov and the heavy amount of brainwashing going on over the decades coming to light... is disheartening.

If it's not obvious enough already, let me make it so.

We've been criticizing China and demanding the release of Liu Xiaobo, nobel peace prize winner. I was fine with that, even though, to be honest, it seemed reasonable that he'd be locked up since he received a fortune from the NED/CIA. I'm all for freedom of information.

Then this bullshit happens. Let me take Trov's quote:



and twist it around:


What the Hell would the US have to do with a Chinese dissident's criticisms of his own gov't?

Wtf does China and Russia have to do with US cables leaked to a Western whistle-blower's medium?

Trying to divert the flow of the topic.

Last edited by Dr. Love at 3:44 am, Dec 5 2010

well id actually want this guy dead to, but only if he leaks information that i think really deserves (in my mind) to be called espionage and sabotage (the American in me )

________________
"when i'm sad, i stop being sad and be awesome instead."
- Barney Stinson

I can understand your feelings... but honestly, too many Americans think that way.

I already suspected that China and America had been heading towards a middle ground ("Chimerica" isn't just an economic reality, but possibly political as well). I just didn't think it would go so quickly.

I think he is a hero. A hero by definition is someone who does what is right no matter the consequences or threat to their life.

As for death threats and the USG trying to kill him? I don't think the WH would okay it but they wouldn't exactly be upset if someone else within the government or who works under a contract of the government like Blackwater...excuse me Xe did.

Since the leaks began he has had at least ten Fox News pundits and politicians call for his assassination. All it needs is one crazy who thinks he is doing the will of good to get him killed. Look at what happened to JFK and Martin Luther King Jr.


These cables date all the way back to 1966. Do you know how much corrupt shit the USG got involved in during that time?

We have off the top of my head:
Vietnam, Iran-Contra Affair, Iraq, the Cold War, Afghanistan in the 80's when we had the CIA train Bin Laden, 9-11, Rwanda, Somalia, Kuwait, Sudan, Darfur, North Korea, Iran during the Shah era, Iran during the hostage crisis, MLK Jr's assassination, Cambodia, Crotia, Serbia, Nixon, Ford, Bush. Halliburton, Iraq War part 2, Afghanistan post 9-11, Blackwater...

The one I'm really looking forward to is Cheney. Right now Nigeria has asked for an arrest warrant for Dick Cheney (ex-VP of USA) for corruption and bribery during his time as CEO of Halliburton and paid a 182 million dollar bribe to the Nigerian government to put in a pipeline worth 6 billion dollars. At least six other people involved have been charged, arrested, and sentenced. And now they went and asked Interpol to arrest him.

Dick Cheney was THE most active VP in the history our nation. He went to the CIA 3-4 times daily and used the cables extensively. Since we all know he pulled some strings to get his ex-company in charge of Iraq we are expected concrete evidence of his corruption. Nigeria then plans to use that to put him in prison.

Speaking as someone who has a family member who did business dealings with that asshole...I can whole heartedly say that he would order someone to kill Assange for far less than this.

Julian Assange is a deadman walking. A lot of very high powerful people in the government and the corporate world want this man dead and gone and the cables destroyed and they are actively behind the works trying to do just that.

Bank of America's stock plunged the other day just on the rumor that Wikileaks has a harddrive of their data and that they are the world banking instution that the next megaleak that Julian Assange has been hinting about that will be as damaged as the Enron Scandal is them.

When you have billionaires panicing like this they usually hire mercenaries to do their dirty work. And Xe has been known to be the number one company they go to for 'security'. And we all know that Xe has no qualms with killing innocent people as Blackwater in Iraq taught us.

Here is the latest list of where you can find Wikileaks.
http://twitter.com/#!/wikileaks
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/79s9r1
I think there is about 200 mirrors up now.

If you don't have the time to read them yourself The Guardian has an excellent series of stories on the cables.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2010/nov/28/us-em bassy-cables-wikileaks (interactive map)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-us-embassy-cables (news archive on the cables)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/us-embassy-cables-the-d ocuments (the cables themselves in an essay to read format)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/nov/29/wikileak s-cables-data (download key data)

Call it lazy all you want, but I wanted YOU to convince me. I thought YOU(Well, not just you, but anyone who could) to show me the evidence. I wanted to have an open mind about this and have proof that he did indeed put stuff up from China and Russia.

And I'm not talking about Chinese BBSs, I'm talking about Wikileaks, and Wikileaks only. Did they or did they not have information from Chinese/Russian Sources about China and Russia respectively? So far, you've yet to answer that question.
It's not about what the users of wikileaks are demanding. It's what the owner is looking for and putting up on his website. If he's putting up stuff from China and Russia from sources that live in China and Russia, then I will change my opinion of him for the better, because at least he isn't biased toward one nation and truly believes in what he says regardless of the country he makes as enemies.


Don't misunderstand.
I never thought there was validity in those rape charges. I just don't think it's completely political.
Here's a link about one of Assange's accusers that makes me believe it's a woman scorned.


Well that's disappointing. I have my doubts he would have posted any such information. But I have no proof on whether he received or didn't received intel. So I can't make a factual judgement one way or the other.



At what point did I say 'espionage and sabotaging'?

He didn't commit those acts(Well, there's an argument for it, but it's not my point.), the people who actually GOT the information did. He simply placed them on his website.


I'm not asking about the leaks that have garnered attention. I'm asking about Wikileaks BIAS.

Last I remember, Assange ISN'T a U.S. citizen. Liu Xiabobo Is a citizen of the very nation Liu criticizes.
They are two completely different scenarios.

Last edited by Trov at 9:06 pm, Dec 4 2010