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Post #545522
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1:06 am, Apr 14 2012
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Currently I am writing a paper for my bioethics class on abortion and euthanasia. One of the problems I came across was the importance and ambiguity of personhood within this discussion.
Here is what I have written for my paper.

Quote
To settle the moral issue of abortion it then becomes important to understand “what properties must something have to be a person.” To do so, I will make use of the works by Peter Strawson and Harry Frankfurt. In the third chapter of his book “Individuals” argues against two conceptions of thought and the individual person; the Cartesian account and what Strawson called the ‘no ownership theory’. The no ownership theory “is the idea that we do not really refer to ourselves when we use the first person pronoun, even though we seem to. There is nothing that owns or has the experiences to which to refer.” While the Cartesian account views the ‘I’ as referring to a pure subject of experience. Strawson states neither of these views have a sufficient concept of a person.

I feel so attached to what in fact I call my body ... why I should speak of this body as mine. But they do not explain why I should have the concept of myself at all, why I should ascribe my thoughts and experiences to anything. ... and they do not explain why, if experiences are to be ascribed to something, they and the corporeal characteristics which might truly be ascribed to the favoured body should be ascribed to the same thing. So the facts in question do not explain the use we make of the word 'I' ... They do not explain the concept of a person (pp. 93f.).

What Strawson expresses is the idea that the concept of a person must refer to both the mental and physical aspects of a person. When an individual refers to the self, it refers to an entity with two aspects, mental and physical, not an entity where the two are separate. Strawson called this a primitive concept of a person, a concept to which both mental and physical predicates can be ascribed, not one reducible to a conjunction of two distinct mental and physical entities. Such that the use of the term ‘I’ refers to the person using it. As we can ascribe these predicates to the self, we should in turn be capable of ascribing these same predicates to others, provided the criteria are logically adequate.

This view is still insufficient, it shows a person to be an entity of both mental and physical predicates, but most animals can be said to have both as well; they have physical bodies and exhibit behavioural patterns to indicate certain, albeit limited, mental predicates. Yet we do not consider animals to be persons. Ultimately there is little difference between the physical predicates applicable between an animal and a human, yet we only consider humans as persons at any point. Thus the ultimate difference between a person and non-person should lay with the applicable mental predicates. Not to say only humans can ever be persons, humans are simply the only entities to which we currently apply the term. As Harry Frankfurt writes: “What interests us most in the human condition would not interest us less if it were also a feature of the condition of other creatures as well.”

Frankfurt argues that the essential difference between persons and non-persons is found in the structure of “a person’s will.” Humans possess mental predicates which correspond to desires and motives, as does any organic creature, to determine choices and actions. It is, according to Frankfurt, characteristically human to be “able to form what I shall call ‘second-order desires’ or ‘desires of the second order.” Consider a statement in the form of “A wants to X.” Such a statement expresses a first-order desire, a statement in which the term “to X” refers to a specific action. This statement of itself contains very little information on the desire itself, neither the strength of the desire nor the importance of the desire to future decision making. It is also not unlikely for there to be conflicting desires; “A wants to X” while simultaneously “A wants to ¬X.” It is these kinds of desires which express a person’s will. “To identify an agent's will is either to identify the desire (or desires) by which he is motivated in some action he performs or to identify the desire (or desires) by which he will or would be motivated when or if he acts. An agent's will, then, is identical with one or more of his first-order desires.” Although, the notion of will is not coextensive with the notion of first-order desires. “Rather, it is the notion of an effective desire – one that moves (or will or would move) a person all the way to action.” The will is then that first-order desire which has effectively come about.

The second-order desires are those desires which in turn refer to other desires. It is a desire in the form of “A wants to X,” where X refers to a first order desire, making it a desire in the form of “A wants to want to X.” There are two ways for this desire to apply. First is to only desire to desire X, not to act on this desire to X. In other words, A possesses the second-order desire to want to want X, while A lacks the first-order desire to want X. The second is the desire to desire X where A wants this desire to X be effective, A desires the desire to X to be his or her will. Harry Frankfurt writes: “Someone has a desire of the second order either when he wants simply to have a certain desire or when he wants a certain desire to be his will. In situations of the latter kind, I shall call his second-order desires ‘second-order volitions’ or ‘volitions of the second order.’ Now it is having second-order volitions, and not having second-order desires generally, that I regard as essential to being a person.” Then to determine someone to be a person, it would be necessary to ascribe these second-order volitions to the subject. To do so, I refer back to Strawson, the criteria for ascribing any kind of mental predicate must be logically adequate. As persons can self-ascribe these second-order volitions, it must be possible to other-ascribe the same, given logically adequate criteria. Thus the concerned subject must exhibit some form of behaviour or expression which shows the presence of second-order volitions.


Giant wall o' text, I know, just bear with me here.
Now, I have two goals with this topic.
First is I genuinely think it an interesting topic and would like to read the ideas of different people on the subject.
The other is that I would welcome some feedback on what I wrote. Whether you agree or disagree, I'd like to know why.

Oh, and please let me know if you spot any grammatical or other errors. Not a native speaker so I would appreciate any corrections.


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Then you have surrendered to the Devil
And must surely perish. - J.W. von Goethe
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1:30 am, Apr 14 2012
Posts: 272


peter singer wrote something about this. I don't know where you can find it but maybe it helps.
As far as I remember solely wrote about abortion. for that he defined the word person more or less like that:
little children can't recognize their reflection in a mirror until they are around one and a half years old.which means that they don't have self conciosness until that time and thus no "self".whithout that they can't be called a person which means they aren't a legal entity protected by the normal laws of a state. this means abortion could be performed up to the point where the develpement as "person" begins.so until they are one and a half years old.
because of that other laws and so on have to be found to regulate that topic.

it could be that he added,too, without being a person one can't be called human because self-conciousness is a integral part of ones' humanity and thus the human rights can't be applied as well but I'm not sure about that part.

well I just skimmed your text so maybe I missed the gist of it but: where are you getting at with the second-order-desire? why is it necessary to define a person?

for understanding:could you give a concrete example for first- and second-order-desires?



Last edited by jelzin89 at 1:54 am, Apr 14 2012

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Post #545532
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2:03 am, Apr 14 2012
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Guess what? Scientifically speaking, the fetus has a different genetic code. It's not part of the mother. I guess you know that already.

But if you're in a bioethics class, gotta bring up the biology.

Last edited by FormX at 2:09 am, Apr 14 2012

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Post #545535
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2:18 am, Apr 14 2012
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@Jelzin89
Thanks, I forgot about that one. I'll see if I can work that in somehow. Should add another 500 words or so.

@FormX
I personally always thought of unborn children as a kind of parasite or symbiote on the parent
Though I guess you could say they are financial/social parasites untill long after birth. bigrazz
But that is kind of beside the point, as I don't want to step on the abortion landmine right now, strictly about what constitutes as a person.

On that note, I came across this sad proposal.
Not even sure where to begin with all that is wrong there.

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Then you have surrendered to the Devil
And must surely perish. - J.W. von Goethe
Post #545537
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2:28 am, Apr 14 2012
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I didn't use the word 'person'....

Although I can see how it doesn't match up with the direction your going.

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2:29 am, Apr 14 2012
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Edward Elric: "Water, 35 litres. Carbon, 20kg. Ammonia, 4 litres. Lime, 1.5kg. Phosphorus, 800g. Salt, 250 g. Niter, 100g. Sulfur, 80g. Fluorine, 7.5g. Iron, 5g. Silicon 3g. And fifteen other elements. Those are the elements to make an average adult human body. You can buy these elemental ingredients at the market with the pocket money of a child. Humans are made so cheaply."

Imo a person is a person because our brains are capable of such complex thought, to most animals we're probably just moving objects. I'm not really contributing to what you're looking for since i'll die if I try reading all that text lmao >>. Just giving my random opinion.

As for abortion and euthanasia I'm with the pro-choice.

Post #545574 - Reply to (#545535) by The Guy
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8:24 am, Apr 14 2012
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Quote from The Guy
On that note, I came across this sad proposal.
Not even sure where to begin with all that is wrong there.


messed up indeed.like many things on the US.I always wonder how people can be that ignorant


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Post #545607 - Reply to (#545522) by The Guy
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1:18 pm, Apr 14 2012
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Quote from The Guy
Currently I am writing a paper for my bioethics class on abortion and euthanasia. One of the problems I came across was the importance and ambiguity of personhood within this discussion.
Here is what I have written for my paper.

Quote
To settle the moral issue of abortion, it becomes important to understand “what properties must something have to be a person.” To do so, I will make use of the works by Peter Strawson and Harry Frankfurt. In the third chapter of his book, Individuals, he (say the name)/they (it depends on whom you are referring to) argues against two conceptions of thought and the individual person: the Cartesian account and what Strawson called the ‘no ownership theory’. The no ownership theory “is the idea that we do not really refer to ourselves when we use the first person pronoun, even though we seem to. There is nothing that owns or has the experiences to which to refer.” While the Cartesian account views the ‘I’ as referring to a pure subject of experience. Strawson states neither of these views have a sufficient concept of a person.

I feel so attached to what, in fact, I call my body ... why I should speak of this body as mine. But they do not explain why I should have the concept of myself at all, why I should ascribe my thoughts and experiences to anything. ... and they do not explain why, if experiences are to be ascribed to something, they and the corporeal characteristics which might truly be ascribed to the favoured body should be ascribed to the same thing. So the facts in question do not explain the use we make of the word 'I' ... They do not explain the concept of a person (pp. 93f.).

What Strawson expresses is the idea that the concept of a person must refer to both the mental and physical aspects of a person. When an individual refers to the self, it refers to an entity with two aspects, mental and physical, not an entity where the two are separate. Strawson called this a primitive concept of a person, a concept to which both mental and physical predicates can be ascribed, not one reducible to a conjunction of two distinct mental and physical entities. Such that the use of the term ‘I’ refers to the person using it. As we can ascribe these predicates to the self, we should in turn be capable of ascribing these same predicates to others, provided the criteria are logically adequate.

This view is still insufficient. it shows a person to be an entity of both mental and physical predicates, but most animals can be said to have both as well; they have physical bodies and exhibit behavioural patterns to indicate certain, albeit limited, mental predicates. Yet we do not consider animals to be persons. Ultimately there is little difference between the physical predicates applicable between an animal and a human, yet we only consider humans as persons at any point. Thus, the ultimate difference between a person and non-person should lay with the applicable mental predicates, which is not to say only humans can ever be persons; humans are simply the only entities to which we currently apply the term. As Harry Frankfurt writes: “What interests us most in the human condition would not interest us less if it were also a feature of the condition of other creatures as well.”

Frankfurt argues that the essential difference between persons and non-persons is found in the structure of “a person’s will.” Humans possess mental predicates which correspond to desires and motives, as does any organic creature, to determine choices and actions. It is, according to Frankfurt, characteristically human to be “able to form what I shall call ‘second-order desires’ or ‘desires of the second order.” Consider a statement in the form of “A wants to X.” Such a statement expresses a first-order desire, a statement in which the term “to X” refers to a specific action. This statement of itself contains very little information on the desire itself, neither the strength of the desire nor the importance of the desire to future decision making. It is also not unlikely for there to be conflicting desires; “A wants to X” while simultaneously “A wants to ¬X.” It is these kinds of desires which express a person’s will. “To identify an agent's will is either to identify the desire (or desires) by which he is motivated in some action he performs or to identify the desire (or desires) by which he will or would be motivated when or if he acts. An agent's will, then, is identical with one or more of his first-order desires.” Although, the notion of will is not coextensive with the notion of first-order desires. “Rather, it is the notion of an effective desire – one that moves (or will or would move) a person all the way to action.” The will is then that first-order desire which has effectively come about.

The second-order desires are those desires which in turn refer to other desires. It is a desire in the form of “A wants to X,” where X refers to a first-order desire, making it a desire in the form of “A wants to want to X.” There are two ways for this desire to apply. First is to only desire to desire X, not to act on this desire to X. In other words, A possesses the second-order desire to want to want X, while A lacks the first-order desire to want X. The second is the desire to desire X where A wants this desire to X be effective, A desires the desire to X to be his or her will. Harry Frankfurt writes: “Someone has a desire of the second order either when he wants simply to have a certain desire or when he wants a certain desire to be his will. In situations of the latter kind, I shall call his second-order desires ‘second-order volitions’ or ‘volitions of the second order.’ Now it is having second-order volitions, and not having second-order desires generally, that I regard as essential to being a person.” Then to determine someone to be a person, it would be necessary to ascribe these second-order volitions to the subject. To do so, I refer back to Strawson, the criteria for ascribing any kind of mental predicate must be logically adequate. As persons can self-ascribe these second-order volitions, it must be possible to other-ascribe the same, given logically adequate criteria. Thus, the concerned subject must exhibit some form of behaviour or expression which shows the presence of second-order volitions.


Oh, and please let me know if you spot any grammatical or other errors. Not a native speaker so I would appreciate any corrections.

Your classes are in English over in Holland? I haven't read everything you wrote, but I underlined and corrected what I have found, which are mostly punctuation errors and some fragments.. Book names are italicized and not put in quotes. Also, you should decide whether you want single- (') or double- (") quotation marks for everything, and use the other kind for in-quote quotes. I think British English writing, which seems to be your style, prefers single quotes ('). I would italicize lone letters as well.

When it comes to essay construction, I don't see you mention euthanasia at all in your introduction, and your conclusion seems like a body paragraph to me. Moreover, I suggest using a thesaurus to avoid repeating words often & increase your vocabulary.

Overall, you write better than a lot of native speakers. Keep it up. b


About the issue, I feel like it is foolish to give an embryo or a fetus human rights. A late stand-up comedian once said that anti-abotionists want to make every woman that has a period a serial killer. :\

Last edited by Seijurou at 1:30 pm, Apr 14 2012

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Post #545628 - Reply to (#545607) by Seijurou
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@Seijurou
Thanks, that really helps me out a lot, I will make those corrections
Unfortuenately, my university prefers the use of chicago style when it comes to the form of qoutes and footnotes/bibliography. So my hands are tied on that point.

As for your comment on essay construction, what I posted is only about a 1000 word part of a 5000 word paper, which should explain it. I will however take your advice and look for a thesaurus to use. If anyone knows a good one on the internet, please let me know.

And no, most of my classes are still in Dutch, at least for the bachelor phase. Though students are encouraged to write in english if they aspire to follow the research master program.
That and english grammer is so much simpler than its dutch counterpart bigrazz

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The highest of all human gifts -
Then you have surrendered to the Devil
And must surely perish. - J.W. von Goethe
Post #545637
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4:17 pm, Apr 14 2012
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Thesauruses? I tend to use the first more than the latter, but the last one has nice definitions; such as, abhorrent: offensive to the mind.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com
http://lookwayup.com/

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Post #546610
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1:38 am, Apr 20 2012
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Hmm...if this is about consciousness, AFAIK I do not think anybody know yet.

There is no clear thesis.I have read "the wall" and I still do not understand what is it that you are trying to say.

* Are you trying to prove a point(eg:I am pro/anti abortion. Here's why....etc)?
* Or are you saying that there exist two opposing philosophical paradigms(and you write this paper to discuss the main differences in their reasonings)?

Regardless, I suggest you question and think deeper about the different factors affecting "bioethics"(whateva that means..lol) and policy making.

Here's a possible perspective as discussed by person A and B so that you have more food for thought.

A: 1) It is wrong to harm another conscious being. 2) It is also therefore wrong to harm an embryo which may be conscious. Why embryo was specifically chosen instead of a rock is because most embryos grow to become like me and a rock doesn't.
B: Why is it wrong in the first place? And what does being conscious mean?
A: Because we live in a society with lots of apparently conscious being similar to me. I know I exist(first item of knowledge as described by Descartes). I know I do not want to feel pain or cease existing(and I do not even know why I do not want to feel pain but that's irrelevant). Therefore if someone try to harm me, I will do anything including harming that person so that I can avoid being harmed. On applying this scenario with many me/s, if I harm anyone, I myself would be harmed because that's what I would do(from the other me/s point).
B: Since the consciousness question have been bugging humanity quite sometime, it is perhaps not completely answerable at this time. Even with recent advances in consciousness research, it is still unclear how can it's existence be quantitatively measured. So let's assume for now that first statement is true. However, second statement is problematic because in case I want to undergo abortion or desire assisted suicide, I have clearly decided that it's preferable to go this route since the alternative bring greater suffering. In the world of me/s,all me would not object and think that the clear suffering of an individual outweighs the possible suffering of an embryo.
A: The problem is in consensus reality, variations in thought patterns arise. I think differently when I was younger. Based on experience, it is reasonable to assume that I will change as I grow old. So, based on "other me/s" model, if I were in a different stage of life, my moral system will be different and I will most likely defend it. So you argument is void because you assume that all you/s have similar behavior.
B: I see the point. However, your statement isn't entirely true either because you are essentially saying that there is an overwhelming majority of me/s who are at the life stage where they think abortion is wrong. But that assumption is incorrect because there is no way to gain that information as of now. A change in perspective might be necessary to view this problem. Since the enforcement and definition of the law happens via governments, the question is what are the factors that affect the government decision?
A: Hmm..I have no idea because I have never been a president or a senator but I would think economics is a factor. Religion also matters because of it's collective influence on a large number of people. I should probably look for more info that will help me decide who will gain and lose in the case either version of the laws are passed. The choice that result in least loss seem like the solution on the surface.

I think A is following a ethical paradigm called Utilitarianism according to wiki's applied ethics article.


Post #546620
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3:22 am, Apr 20 2012
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IMO people are expanding population too fricken fast so any loss of reproduction is welcomed. I'm one more trip to Miami away from being pro massacre. Much less abortion.

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Post #546656 - Reply to (#546610) by cryonox
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@cryonox
I agree, conciousness is a very complex thing to discuss. How do you even define what being concious means? Are other people concious? etc.

But that wasn't really the discussion I was going for.
It was through some papers I read as research for my own paper when I came across the relevance of personhood in the discussion on abortion. As moral obligation only exist between persons (this is also debateable,as is pretty much anything really) then abortion would be morally permissible if an unborn child is not a person.

In the 'wall' I used Strawsons idea on personhood and Frankfurt's expansion on this idea in an attept to give a clear concept of what a person is; what are the criteria for being a person.

So in effect, the question I wanted to discuss in this topic was when can someone be considered a person. And what does it mean for someone to be a person.

This isn't supposed to be about abortion, I think there are other topics talking about that.

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The highest of all human gifts -
Then you have surrendered to the Devil
And must surely perish. - J.W. von Goethe
Post #546660
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8:22 am, Apr 20 2012
Posts: 216


<I>I agree, conciousness is a very complex thing to discuss. How do you even define what being concious means? Are other people concious? etc.</I>

so what? I had a lengthy discussion with some guy who was claiming to be suicidal (maybe over a girlfriend leaving him) on the nature of death and the afterlife/reincarnation.

I did slant my views a bit to try to persuade him not to suicide.

the piece I wrote went like this:

Reincarnation ....and sin. both sound like flowery nothingness.

you have this life, that is known. a next life is doubtful and is something thats told to you to get you to behave.

what is self? your body is you, but thats replacable, your brain holds your memories and experiences, which are hard to replace and you won't take them with you.

and theirs your mind which is not nessarily your brain, but uh, stored in some higher quantum of existance (science speak for we really don't know what the **** we are talking about but hey if it exists, its there)

So since your body and your brain dies and turns to dirt, its not going to reincarnate beyond decomposition -> stuff eats your corpse and grows -> stuff eats the stuff that ate your corpse -> etc.

thats known. but we want the part thats not accounted for. we want to know what happens to your mind.

one could say the whole heaven thing life flashing before your eyes/light at the end of a tunnel is a hallucination caused by the dying process in the brain, a purely chemical and traceable reaction. but we aren't talking about heaven are we?

we are talking about your consciousness. Taking away what your body and your brain whats LEFT to go anywhere? because your body and brain will DIE, and become wormfood.

So now that we've done and removed the part that clearly dies, what is left? is it SOMETHING? because if it IS it goes somewhere, by like conservation of mass and energy it doesn't just poof.

if it WAS to reincarnate though, like everything else on the planet it would pool first, and you would mix whatever was left of you, with everything else thats unborn consciousness, so that small bit thats left is going to be diluted into near non-existance. picture tossing a candle flame into the sun. mixing it up, and spitting out a new candle flame from the sun, sort of deal.

I'm using the sun as an example since well, life on the planet tends to get its energy from the sun, or from things that got their energy from the sun, so if you DO come back you probably have to go there first.

so your assignment if you want to 'be knowledgeable' is to figure out what your 'soul' that could reincarnate is. then try to track how life enters and leaves an organism.

then decide if you think its reasonable what you are expecting to happen.

if you do believe in reincarnation human -> bug. know that bugs have far less consciousness than humans, so one human's consciousness would be split into like hundreds of bug consciousness.

eventually they could move into a human body, but the thing that moved into a human body would not be YOUR complete consciousness but 1% of your consciousness would be in 100 different people or in different things.

yeah.


....So In short I believe everything is conscious, plants animals bugs trees. just not nessesarilly ENOUGH concious to be human/sentient.

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9:09 am, Apr 20 2012
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About euthanasia:
I think every human has the right to live and thus also the right to die. You should decide by yourself if you want to live or if you want to die.
What you might find interesing, if you don't already know about it, is "Dignitas" a Swiss assisted dying group that helps people do die.

About Abortion:
Generally i am not against it but i think in cases where people are just to dumb to use some kind of birth protection it is not right because it is their own fault.
Peter Singer wrote something about it, i think.

And i think you tet is really good. smile

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