I know your only twelve, but then its a great time to review your belief.

Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."
1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals"

Theres a lof of more examples.

The new testament acknowledge the old as law (Jesus own words).

You cant be pro gay marriage and at the same time be a real christian. If you are critical enough to censor the parts of the bible you dont like then you are also capable of living without it. Or you accept 100% of it as the ultimate truth, or you accept that the bible is not an argument for anything. Neither for homophobia, nor for your faith. Anything else is just being inconsistent.

Just to make clear I am 100% atheist and I pro legalizing homosexual marriage.

Last edited by kaidiego at 1:22 am, Jul 11 2012

________________
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900) - "Man is more ape than many of the apes."

Jean-Paul Sartre - "You are--your life, and nothing else."

Henrik Ibsen - "The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."

Quote from Yunikon


Dear jasonred79,

Additionally, they are myths for a reason. They're not real... I'm not a Greek or Romans expert, but when people of ancient times created these myths and stories, they included in there a part of their history and civilization. If they used a half jackal half human as their God and worship that, you are to respect the history, not to conclude that the whole civilization support interspecies sex.



Woa. I'm actually shocked seeing this.

Homosexuality was considered condemn by the Bible, okay, that's 1 saying to that. God, the heavenly God, did not sit down and wrote those words that you hold on to dearly. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to judge your religion, but sometimes, for the better of the world, let go! What's written in there has been in there for years, and by someone who is not you. You can think for yourself and can decide what would be the logical decision. If you don't want homosexual marriage, don't get one. (The Bible does not tell you to forbid others to do so, also)

As far as I'm concerned, homosexual marriage should be legal. Everywhere. The church and the state should be completely separate and other people's religious views should not impact on someone's ability to marry another person of the same sex. I find it really tiresome that religious authorities think they have some right to determine what marriage is and who's allowed to do it, when for many people nowadays marriage is not even a religious thing. The concept of marriage has changed before and it will change again. If you don't like the idea of homosexual marriage, don't get one. (I also think priests should not have to perform gay marriage if they're against it - who would want to be married by someone like that anyway. There will always be other people who don't care about the gender or sexual identity of the people they're performing a marriage for). Your beliefs are not enough to justify denying millions of people the right to marry the one they love. In places where homosexual marriage has been legalised, has there been chaos and forced sodomy and mass paedophilia and the collapse of society as we know it? No.

I live in the UK and there's a lot of debate going on about homosexual marriage at the moment as the government has stated its intent to make it legal by 2015. Currently homosexual couples can only get a civil partnership, but I think it would be nice to offer the equal right to marriage as well. I'm bisexual and I'd like that option to be there for me, as well as for the many friends I have who are gay or bi.

Quoting from Leviticus is not enough to say homosexuality is not allowed in Christianity. Leviticus is full of weird rules about hair cuts and the material of the clothes you wear, but nobody pays attention to those. Why should the homosexuality passages stand if the others don't? It's also my understanding that those rules were only in place before Jesus was crucified as a way for people to atone. Once Jesus died for humanity's sins, those rules were no longer necessary. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an expert on the bible.)

________________
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Okay let me clear this up a bit for Christians, especially Protestants like me. I'm not very familiar with other sects so I'm sorry if I say anything that offends other sects. It's okay if you don't listen to me. I'm not forcing anyone to follow what I said. I'm just stating what I've always been taught in church. I hope this can maybe help people who are unfamiliar with the Bible make some sense of the Christianity vs. Homosexuality debate.

I agree Biblically that God said that homosexuality is not allowed.

However, even as a Protestant Christian myself, I think that homosexual marriage should be decided by the LGBT community and not the Christians. Whether homosexual marriage is legal or not has very little to do with us.

For Christians, the issue for us is preventing ourselves from becoming homosexual, and not interfering in other people's [non Christian's] affairs. If other people are gay/lesbian/bi, etc, that's not our problem. We're supposed to leave it up to God to judge people and we should take care of our own business. James 4:11 states that "..If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God's law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you." Our job is to urge fellow Christians to do what is right and not participate in public, non Christian affairs or judge others. We can tell others that we don't think it's right for us Christians to be homosexual and that God does not like homosexuality, but it is not right for us to be pointing fingers at others. It basically goes back to the story of the woman caught in adultery. Jesus told people that those who have not sinned can throw the first stone at her. No one threw the stone because they all knew they sinned one way or another. Because all people are sinners, we cannot judge each other because we would be acting like hypocrites. God hates hypocrisy as much as He hates homosexuality. Just as a reminder, James 2:10 stated that "For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws." Judging a homosexual is just as bad as being a homosexual [in God's eyes].

I agree that Christians should not support homosexuality, as the Bible very clearly states that homosexuality is a sin and must not be done. James 3:11-12 states that "Does a spring of water bubble out with both fresh water and bitter water? Does a fig tree produce olives, or a grapevine produce figs? No, and you can't draw fresh water from a salty spring." Christians cannot support what God doesn't like while supporting Christ at the same time. But this also means that Christians should not support the berating or judging of the LGBT community. What we're supposed to do is tell others that God does not like homosexuality and that we should not engage in homosexual acts ourselves because God doesn't like it. We are not supposed to go around insulting, berating, judging, or actively participating in affairs relating to homosexuality or anything else that God does not like.

Personally, I'm not a supporter of homosexuality in a religious viewpoint, but I could honestly care less of anyone's sexuality. You're gay? Fine with me. I even have friends who are gay and lesbian. I'm fine with them. I don't judge them anymore than their non Christian friends. However, if they're Christian and they're homosexual, I would remind them nicely once or twice that God doesn't like the fact that they're gay during religious events, though I won't force what I've said on them. As long as what the people around me does doesn't interfere with my religion, I could care less. However, if the LGBT community directly involves the Christian community like now, I will step in and defend my beliefs. But at the same time, if anyone is insulting any of my gay friends, I will also step in and defend them. It's not right to fight, insult, or hurt others.

God wants Christians to be peace makers, not instigators. We shouldn't be sticking our noses in the LGBT community's affairs saying "HEY WELL GOD DOESN'T LIKE GAYS SO HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED." It really has nothing to do with us, you know... :/

Well said. I wish I knew more Christians who have the same view point. I too have friends, both bi and gay, but all of them know where I stand on gay marriage. If any type of couple (fully capable of consenting) wants the same rights as a “regular” marriage in the USA, they should have it.

My main concern and some people may think it’s ridiculous, is if gay marriage becomes fully legal in the USA: How far could a law suit go base on the pure definition of the word marriage?

I can easily see a Christian group (or a group of any other religion against gay marriage) go to / or be taken to court by a Gay group (or couple).

Just to point out I am atheist and pro legalizing homosexual marriage, and in Norway where i live we have done that. They can get civil marriage and church marriage since the church is owned by the state.

Just a question to you christian guys that are pro homosexual marriage.

If you can ignore the part of the bible where your christian God condemns homosexuality, why dont you just ignore the rest also? Are you not just cherry picking what you like or not?

Al your arguments about that part being old, or bad interpreted, that it should be ignored and so on can also be applied to the rest of the Bible. So or you take everything or you dont. Choosing what part of the bible you want to apply or not on a completely subjective basis makes no sense since the arguments for one part is equal for the rest. It woul be like beliving in some parts of mathematics and not in others.


Last edited by kaidiego at 1:50 am, Jul 11 2012

________________
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900) - "Man is more ape than many of the apes."

Jean-Paul Sartre - "You are--your life, and nothing else."

Henrik Ibsen - "The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."

Christians are also told not to judge. It’s not our place (yes I know plenty of fellow Christians who need to check themselves on that and on trying to force Christianity on others). Jesus himself went to (during the time) the worst sinners and let them choose what they wished to do; he just showed them an option.
And yes a person can be pro gay marriage and be a real Christian. If it is a sin to be pro gay marriage it will just be another sin some will have to answer to God. We’re human, not one of us is perfect and God knows that.

GO HOMOS!!!!!

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Okey... so if I understant you right, you are taking your chances. If its a sin you think you will answear to that when the time comes. And so will also al the rest of the pro gay marriage people.

Normaly when operating with norms that contradict each other the rule is "lex specialis" which means that the special norm overrules the general norm. "Lex specialis" is a logical and common rule also used by religious scholastics. The norm "not to judge" is a general norm, and for example the norm from Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." is a special norm. The conclusion is that Lev 18:22-23 overrules "not to jugde". Also since Jesus says that the laws and morals from the old testament are still law in the new testament, then everything from Lev is still valid and axcepted by Jesus. Just saying...

Dont you think an almighty God could have specified better what is a sin or not? Or maybe if he just appeard for once and made things clear? He would spare us a lot of trouble. Or is that just to unrealistic?



Well.. the discussion is about gay marriage and as long as we agree that it should be legalized there is nothing to argue about. I was just curious how you tackle being pro gay marriage and at the same time beliving in a God that is probably homophobic. At least that is how he is quoted in The Bible, and there is no other reason to belive he thinks otherwise (assuming that the god exist).

Last edited by kaidiego at 3:12 am, Jul 11 2012

________________
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900) - "Man is more ape than many of the apes."

Jean-Paul Sartre - "You are--your life, and nothing else."

Henrik Ibsen - "The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."

You seem to have a few jumps in your logic:

Believing in (a) God and being pro homosexual marriage (or at least not against it), is not mutually exclusive. Or are you saying that believers can have no opinions of their own?
Also, omnipotence != perfection. The God of monotheistic religions may be all powerful, but that need not mean that (s)he is also perfect. (Perfection is in the eye of the beholder and all that).

"Dont you think an almighty God could have specified better what is a sin or not? Or maybe if he just appeard for once and made things clear? He would spare us a lot of trouble. Or is that just to unrealistic?"
Well, to that I can only say: "God works in mysterious ways" or "God is testing us"... Or in honest words, "we don't know, stop asking questions".
The most original thing I've heard say on this was that we should always strife to live full and good lives while being true to ourselves, that way there are no regrets and come what may. Don't let yourself be dictated by someone else.

"Also since Jesus says that the laws and morals from the old testament are still law in the new testament, then everything from Lev is still valid and axcepted by Jesus. Just saying."
I've never heard Jesus say this, nor is there any definitive proof of him (if he ever truly existed, and not just (made up? and) idolized beyond all recognition) ever having said this. Also, the old testament (and even the new one) contain quite a few very offensive "laws" and opinions (on slavery, treatment of humans in general, but women especially, etc.)
But even then, the entire concept escapes me. What does any of this this have to do with the allowing of gay marriage?

I can understand faith, I can understand believing in some sort of god, but what I can't understand is believing in scriptures. Especially when you know there are quite a few different sects on this world and Christianity has only been around for a short while... Not to forget that everything physical, that includes the testament(s) and the Bible, was created by humans.
Ah well, humans have been using religion as a means and excuse to push their own opinions onto others. "You don't like homosexuality?", fine, but DON'T use religion as an excuse or hide behind figures that have no way of stating their own opinions.

P.S.
This is just my opinion, you don't have to agree and I'm not saying people that DO believe are in anyway stupid or inferior, I'm just asking that people open their eyes to the absurdity of it all, especially in relation to all the gay bashing.

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Aren't you a little bit of a hypocrite? If you dont support homosexuality, why do you have to bother and "remind them once or twice" even if it's "nicely" done? Especially "during religious events"? What's the purpose? You want them to "wake up"? You want them to be "not-gay" during religious events? If your God is so great and omnipotence, he'd be with you no matter when or where, not just during religious events. Before you remind someone about your homosexuality, don't you think that you're invading their privacy, their personal preference as well as insulting their beliefs in their God?



So God actually said that this one is normal and the other one is general? That this one overrules the other one ?

Now God is homophobic... I'm sorry, I don't know your God, but I'd prefer to have a God that is benevolence, all-loving, and accepting me for who I am.

It's like all of you saying that "yes, homosexual marriage"is okay, as long as it doesnt happen in front of me, not in my church, etc. because I don't think it's right." What?!

Totally agree with mutch of what you are saying Joentjuh.

As I said before I am pro legalizing gay marriage as mutch as possible. Especially normal civil marriage should be the same for homosexuals. Gender should not interfere with right of people to be able to enjoy the legal benefits of being married.

But I do not totally agree with forcing different churches and religious congregations to accept gay marriage in their particular church. If a group of "single minded" people get togheter to practice religion or what not, they should have the right to decide who is to get married in their church.

There should be plenty of other churches to choose from (in last case start one, seems to be a lot of money in the business), and civil marriage should always be an easy option.

________________
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900) - "Man is more ape than many of the apes."

Jean-Paul Sartre - "You are--your life, and nothing else."

Henrik Ibsen - "The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."

You dont have to have a phd in linguistics or phiolosophy to understand that "not to judge" is a more general rule then "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." One applies everyone everytime and the other applies only to the situation where a man lies with an other male as one lies with a female. Lex specialis is used by religious scholastics that probably has used a lot more time trying to understand the scriptures than you have. In fact i think its origin is from catholics interpreting the bible. Now a days its a common rule in many national laws.

And just using plane logic. Jesus sayd not to judge. God is agaist homosexuality. God words should weight more then Jesus word, or not? He is the boss is he not? I dont know... what happens when God and Jesus dont agree? Why would Lev 18:22-23 exist if it was not to have a meaning.

If your Christian then yes you have a homophobic God. We can easily read that from the testaments. And i havent found new quotes from God where he has changed his mind... since he havent actually said anything new lately, or ever. If you have heard something then please present it.

And marriage in particular is defined as a union between a man and a woman. Any other kind of "sexual" or "romantic" union between two persons is considered a sin.

Just read the stuff they give you and stop listenig to only what they want to you to listen. Homophobia is only one of many sick things in the scriptures.

And regarding what I personally think i dont mind homosexualy. Morally its not different from heterosexuality. As an atheist I see absolutely no problem with gay marriage. Regarding man marrying man I actually think we should have more of that, becouse that would mean more women for the rest of us! The "genes" may be pissed that their journey has comme to a end, but that is hardly a moral problem.

Last edited by kaidiego at 9:04 am, Jul 11 2012

________________
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900) - "Man is more ape than many of the apes."

Jean-Paul Sartre - "You are--your life, and nothing else."

Henrik Ibsen - "The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."

I'm also an atheist but I'm as much against discrimination based on sexuality as I am against discrimination based on religion.

I agree that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and often bullshit, but while Christianity is founded upon it's teachings, it doesn't mean every Christian is required to follow it's teachings word by word.

In theory they should because that's what believing in it is all about, but in the end religion is just a personal thing and as long as it makes people feel and/or act better, it does it's job.

In the end Bible was written by humans and as long as you're not a nutcase, you can and probably will want to believe that God is good and benevolent toward all humans regardless of their sex, race, orientation or religion. And it's better this way.

I agree. But as we know there is a lot of nutcases. Money dosent grow on tress but it seems that nutcases do. And people dont hesitetate to use religion and God to discriminate others. I only know about religious groups opposing gay marriage. So far i havent heard any atheist or agnostic arguing agaist gay marriage.

Correct me if I am wrong but the only reason we have a discussion about something so simple seems to be becouse of religious morals and doctrines.

________________
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900) - "Man is more ape than many of the apes."

Jean-Paul Sartre - "You are--your life, and nothing else."

Henrik Ibsen - "The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."