Don't let me warn you guys again, but this is thread is about Naruto.

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A just ruler amongst tyrants

cough cough.....cough cough


anyway, Naruto is overrated, end of story!

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Life, what would it be without so much wrongs and rights?


Star Trek XI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiR-NETDr0

First of all, please, sir, please show me these instances of callousness that from which you draw your judgements of Naruto's character.




Second of all, WTH! Since when has it become a necessity for a Shounen series to have, though you call it "moe potential", fan service?! I believe that you're looking in the wrong place for these aspects of a manga. Perhaps, Ecchi or Hentai would closer suit your sick needs.

-jwu

I thought derailing this kind of thread would be a public service though =P

eh? fanservice? hentai? what are you talking about? i said moe... the character roles?... dont use or compain about words you dont understand its embarassing


besides i dont like being insulted, especially not by a "fan of naruto" who read maybe 4 or 5 manga and thinks hes "so pro" this thread should have been closed the moment "naruto is a masterpiece" showed up in the title

boys boys -or girls- don't fight be nice to each other.... is what I should say!!

but are you 5 years old? in a forum -and any conversation- you should respect everyone and their point of view after that you give yours and thats it.

if you like it good if not make a point to say why not! or just stop...

and to answer some of your points... yes some of the character development looks slow yet it has something that is compeling to keep read/watching and what is the problem with Naruto being hot headed -really- have you thought of a manga where everyone is like Sasuke!? It doesn't look like much to me! this is shonen there has to be someone like that otherwise it would be too serious -thus not being shonen-

and before someone bashes at me I am not playing mature or scolding anyone in here is just that although I don't call it a Masterpiece I do look forward for the manga and the weekly anime... -and yes I do read other manga besides Naruto right now my list in progress has 20 and I love everything from drama, sports, comedy, mature, shonen, shoujo, ecchi... ^_^-

and so I don't make this even longer I will finish by saying that if the topic didn't have the title masterpiece it wouldn't atract as much attention as it does.

sorry for being a nag I just like to read what everyone thinks! \(>_<)/

Sir, if "she says to herself 'nyah i have some indecent thoughts about tsunade-sama again, i really should stop that' "is not perverted, then I do not know what is. Oh, and in case you didn't know, that's a meaning of hentai in japanese: pervert.


I'm just curious as to how you think that I've read less manga than you. We can talk about kinds of manga if you really feel like complaining that you've read more than me.

Also, the POINT of a forum is to talk. So putting a controversial topic allows for intelligent conversation as long as people act in a judicial manner.

Thank you for your reply, sir. It was amusing.

-jwu

Last edited by JWuThe2 at 7:34 pm, Feb 27 2007

I posted this in general but I did want you all to know how I felt. I think you guys rock and I hope this type of discussion continues later. Again my manga list is public so please peruse it for yourselves and likewise, make yours public so we can learn more from each other:

I posted on Naruto being a masterpiece and we're having a discussion there now. It's not always pretty but I must say that I have TRULY ENJOYED the conversation. Yes it gets heated as I understand not everyone is a fan of Naruto and while I personally as an adult get discouraged at criticism on the net (there used to be a time when people actually INTELLIGENTLY expressed positive and negative views with actuals facts so that EVERYONE went away a little bit better for the experience of debate) which is very immature and uninformed at times.

That said, I love this site. I posted this while my GF was cooking dinner during the Oscars and already there are great responses. I love this site cuz as a 30 something professional male it's great to come to a site and learn about new manga (I personally learned of berserk and Kekkaishi on this site amongst others) and to be able to communicate openly about favorites across titles, manga-ka and so on.

I truly hope everyone here continues to support this site and post more like I did about your favorite manga. We may not all agree but I do hope and I do think that we can and should walk away as better Manga fans as a result!-- Thanks!!

Absolutely Daed -- I showed this to my GF and we both love it. Glad to know I'm in good Greek company. I hope u're going to go see the 300 movie. We can't wait.

My comments back have << >> around them.





<I'm going to look on your list and see if you've read even 2 manga but bottom line is you've actually done more to prove my point about lame and baseless criticisms while proving a strong hatred of the manga and manga-ka for reasons that are very unclear or undefined. That said, I think naruto is a manga that is great for what it is...as a shounen..it kills Bleach and Dragonball hands down except for the homosexual part you mentioned..I agree that Bleach wins for that topic in many ways. I don't think Naruto beats berserk but it's not a competition..Berserk is not trying to be shounen. So, Naruto is a masterpiece for what type of fiction it's trying to tell and the fact is that it has proven this and I feel will continue this trend long after it's ended>

Last edited by Daedalus at 8:33 pm, Feb 27 2007

Holy cow, this place is so hot. lol

As for me, I like Naruto but not thinking it as a masterpiece. I just enjoy reading the manga and curious about what's coming next.
The fillers certainly have ruined the image of Naruto. It was pretty bad that I almost curse myself for watching it. Now that the fillers are no more, I'm starting to grow my liking of this title again.

well jwuthe2 and daedalus, you obviously made clear what level of understanding you have of the japanese language and lets say.... "anime/manga terminology"
i am talking about moe M O E damnit is it that difficult to read?
its M O E - P O T E N T I A L what is so difficult with this word(s) that you constantly misunderstand it

hen-tai in japanese means strange desire, nothing else, and has absolutely nothing to do with moe, it does NOT mean pervert, again you ridicule yourself, you totally dont get what i mean with the "nyah..." sentence

i never even once said bleach has a good story or is a good manga, hello? actually read at least once what i wrote, ill spell it once again for you since you obviously need repetitions: bleach has insanely much MOE potential as shounen manga should have, thats the only thing i said here about bleach, why do you put words in my mouth i never wrote, this is the lowest kind of polemics
and bleach and homosexuality? lol? you kinda dont get the picture do you? theyre just bishies, its the drawing style, bishounen and bishoujo, why dont you know such basics and pretend to be a pro here?... and ichigo not being able to "decide", not "noticing" not "bothering" or what ever, is a typically recurring element for male main characters, although if you actually read bleach you wouldve known that he chose rukia over orihime, or better, he was never romantically interested in inoue at all



and where the hell do you see homosexual content in bleach?... well aside of soifon maybe
ill spell it out before u make something up i presumably said again: bleach is definitely not a masterpiece as well, and i also never said that, but i seriously doubt that you read it completely or understood it from what you write here, ichigo has far more important things to do than thinking about a love realationship

edit: oh it took me awhile casue i couldnt guess someone making such a ridiculous mistake BIshounen has nothing to do with "BI"sexual, its an abbreviation of "BI"JIN (or maybe that is again an abbreviation of something idont know) and means simply beatiful person and it is the way theyre drawn, yeah let me guess BIshoujo senshi sailor moon is a lesbian orgy for military fetishists

and its not tsunade in that one case, its TSUNDERE tsuntsun, deredere? one of the most popular moe character traits? asuka langley (NGE)? hawkeye-chuii (FMA)? again, why do you not know this basic stuff and presume of yourself to know that much about manga?
hinata--> yes the comment was supposed to be funny, but again you totally dont get it, a moe character (which hinata is supposed to be and actually is if it werent for those eyes) cannot have such a "repulsive" appearance, a moe character can miss an eye (rei) or even a limb but it has to be aesthetically concealed... yeah i know you dont get it

again you absolutely dont get it--> lee is not a genius, being a "genius of hard work" means not being a genius at all, as i said he IS a genius of suiken, but that is a parodical trait and does not put him into the tensai group, composed of: (konoha gakure naruto generation only) sasuke and neiji (bloodline powers fully developed), shikamaru (iq over 200), maybe shino, who knows we dont know much about him, did i forget someone? naruto is the same as wthem, in addition to being a moron, thats why he is totally against the message of the story
if training and hard work is supposed to bring you on the same level as those geniuses, why does he constantly rely on the kyuubi chakra, every time he uses tajuu kagebunshin no jutsu or rasengan, he is relying on it, and aside of that he has no redeeming skills, even though he is supposed to train SOOOO hard

rock lee is totally the opposite, lee is true to the mangas message, he can open omote renge (and the others, forgot how many) all by himself, without outside help, his teacher is not one of the legendary sannin, and still he succeeds in his training so much, lee (and many others) is a true hero of the story, while naruto is just a lying bastard, naruto himself knows about the kyuubi, but still pretends as if his "training" was the only thing that made him so "great" that HE should be hokage

and lastly, YOU are trying to make me look bad cause i havent read the entire manga? then why does YOU who read and saw all chapters and eps NOT know what gaaras demon is called, kyuuNi? bullshit, its shukaku (thats the 1 tailed demon),. why again do you not know the very basics WHY? ive seen every ep only once and read every chapter to 211 only once as well, why do i know all that and you dont

also you comment about my nickname is just lame, do you know what it means, where it come from? do you speak the language its written it? well i do, but why do you presume to understand the hidden meaning behind my nickname? isnt that called arrogance... and how do you call that if its paired with ignorance? you want to be over 30? well i have over 1 decade to go for that, but even now i wouldnt create a thread in a community im barely acquainted to, with a title like "naruto is a masterpiece"... oh no it was "MASTERPIECE"

oh lol and you know about pokemon... great, a 30yo pokemon watcher, youre just great, i didnt even know any character in that lame piece of trash would resemble my nickname

intelligence is mostly the ability to learn --> amount of knowledge gained/ time invested
i have a friend i introduced to anime half a year ago, and even he would never make such ridiculous embarassing mistakes you did, you shouldnt use the word "intelligent" in order to make other look bad

ah yes one more thing for you to LEARN, in japan graphical violence is not rated the same as e.g. in the states, thats why even though naruto is a manga for kids, people can die there, this is not the A-Team but aimed at the same generation

do you know what a "boon" is? its similar to daed --> dead

Last edited by schokomax at 4:16 am, Feb 28 2007

Eyes...falling...out....so much to read... I'm glad that someone finally explains some of the anime/manga terminology like exactly what moe is or tsundere and stuff like that. However, I don't think you should be so hard on others especially if they are more focused on stuff like Naruto, Bleach, and Berserk as none of the terminology you've pointed out and explained have appeared in said anime/manga. I for one know what you're talking about, however it is after reading various different genres and mangas before I actually understood. Ai Kora points out the moe and tsundere otaku stuff in a very comedic and understandable way...you should check it out if you're interested.

BtW...I liked Pokemon, until they started creating so many new pokemon to catch. I thought it was pretty cool at first. Now I think it's kind of like beating that dead horse and hoping some more money comes out of it.

well i dont have a problem with people liking naruto, im reading and watching it as well after all, its the thread title that annoys the hell outa me, and its exactly because of such things that naruto fans, commonly known as narutards have such an extremeley bad standing in the community the author of the thread wants to know why naruto fans are hated, and automatically gives the reason for it in his thread title, "uneducated arrogance" you can be arrogant, but then you have to be topnotch as well

also wikipedia offers articles for almost the entire terminology of anime/manga, ever stumble upon something you dont know? look it up, and try to fit it to the things youve encountered until now

every subculture has its own vocabulary, espeically those on the net

Last edited by schokomax at 5:32 am, Feb 28 2007

lol--schmocky--you are a trip bro. Were you not loved as a little Chibi (hey--I'm using SLANG) . Anyways, I'm at work...I don't have too much time for this today but your comments prove my point about haters and capture the Republican level debate that some of you are engaging in...what I like to call the "bait and switch" argument style. Bring up a fact like WMD's or in your case Japanese slang and then plant them in an unrelated argument like I dunno Iraq and/or in my case...Naruto. See the lameness. Actually, I will say this..your level of debate style did something I didn't expect. Most of it's been 12 yr old..yours is officially 16 yr. old.

Let's review your comments cuz many of them are full of information..useless but information nonetheless.


Quote:
well jwuthe2 and daedalus, you obviously made clear what level of understanding you have of the japanese language and lets say.... "anime/manga terminology" <<<<actually let's not....I actually for once am offended. I've travelled to Japan and have been an exchange student when I was most likely your age now--I go frequently for business. So, your comments are out of place and inaccurate. More than anything though is why you are concerned with this? What does knowing anime/ manga terminology have to do with undestanding Naruto's brilliance? R u British? Do you understand Harry Potter? R u an African American? Do you understand/ enjoy Hip Hop? You are making a lame argument that diverts attention away from the heart of what makes Naruto special and when the facts are that it's read around the world more than just about any manga save One Piece then perhaps you might be able to admit that you're grasping at straws to attack it and not actually providing a meaty level of discourse>>>


i am talking about moe M O E damnit is it that difficult to read?
its M O E - P O T E N T I A L what is so difficult with this word(s) that you constantly misunderstand it <<<Not difficult to understand but honestly it's Japanese slang. It's Japanese slang. I mean it borders on obsession and sometimes used for homosexual references so--r u trying to make a point about the word? About your brilliance with this type of slang? Does it have anything to do with Naruto? Or just prove your mastery of sexual japanese slang words? Likewise, what does any of that have to do with Naruto's credibility with being a masterpiece to fans of good literature?>>>

hen-tai in japanese means strange desire, nothing else, and has absolutely nothing to do with moe, it does NOT mean pervert, again you ridicule yourself, you totally dont get what i mean with the "nyah..." sentence

<<<U're right Nyah...I didn't get. I assumed it meant that u're a jackass but maybe I didn't get it. But, definitely hentai I understand--and as I said before..neither that nor moe has anything to do with Naruto or it being a masterpiece..it's just proving you're AWESOME with Japanese Sexual Term/slang. Way to go schmocky>>

i never even once said bleach has a good story or is a good manga, hello? actually read at least once what i wrote, ill spell it once again for you since you obviously need repetitions: bleach has insanely much MOE potential as shounen manga should have, thats the only thing i said here about bleach, why do you put words in my mouth i never wrote, this is the lowest kind of polemics

<<<No, u reference Bleach as having Moe potential..obsessive love for characters between humans and anime/manga and I asked what was your obsession with Bleach? There are many references in that manga of the characters loving each other and clearly of fans loving the characters due to cool poses and such but not for storyline since there isn't one really? So, what's your point? If you're making a statement...make it..otherwise, stay away from straw man arguments>>>>


and bleach and homosexuality? lol? you kinda dont get the picture do you? theyre just bishies, its the drawing style, bishounen and bishoujo, why dont you know such basics and pretend to be a pro here?...


<<<lol--listen ---I'm not pretending to be a pro...I am a fan and work in the industry dealing with probably more of your Japanese heroes than you deal with--so please help me know--what picture am I missing? That you know Japanese slang sexual terms and want to invoke them into Naruto is such a strange and superfluous connection--it's just crazy and lame. Beautiful boys and/or beautiful girls have nothing to do with my post. I'm speaking about Naruto..the storytelling and the complexities of the plot. Talking with you is like talking to a Star Trek fan who wants to impress you with their use of Klingon rather than discuss what episodes they did or didn't like>>>>

and ichigo not being able to "decide", not "noticing" not "bothering" or what ever, is a typically recurring element for male main characters, although if you actually read bleach you wouldve known that he chose rukia over orihime, or better, he was never romantically interested in inoue at all

<<<< I do read the manga..and he chose to rescure Rukia and now...plot development ...is doing the same for inoue...so seems like u either are missing the facts or not too familiar with Bleach. Either way, recurring them for my own bishonen self.;;according to my GF is "what does this have to do with Naruto??>>>

and where the hell do you see homosexual content in bleach?... well aside of soifon maybe
ill spell it out before u make something up i presumably said again: bleach is definitely not a masterpiece as well, and i also never said that, but i seriously doubt that you read it completely or understood it from what you write here, ichigo has far more important things to do than thinking about a love realationship <

<<more important things to do? What's his mission? All he ever does is get powered up and rescure people. But regardless this isn't about Bleach..about Naruto..I wish you sprouted half of your time with Naruto comments than you do about other manga...on the naruto board and post>>

edit: oh it took me awhile casue i couldnt guess someone making such a ridiculous mistake BIshounen has nothing to do with "BI"sexual, its an abbreviation of "BI"JIN (or maybe that is again an abbreviation of something idont know) and means simply beatiful person and it is the way theyre drawn, yeah let me guess BIshoujo senshi sailor moon is a lesbian orgy for military fetishists

<<Actually, it's a fetish by both men and women in Japan and actually is always used in homosexual references but regardless...your knowledge of bi- bishounen, yaoi, moe and whatever else u want is clearly your closet to sit in>>>


and its not tsunade in that one case, its TSUNDERE tsuntsun, deredere? one of the most popular moe character traits? asuka langley (NGE)? hawkeye-chuii (FMA)? again, why do you not know this basic stuff and presume of yourself to know that much about manga?
hinata--> yes the comment was supposed to be funny, but again you totally dont get it, a moe character (which hinata is supposed to be and actually is if it werent for those eyes) cannot have such a "repulsive" appearance, a moe character can miss an eye (rei) or even a limb but it has to be aesthetically concealed... yeah i know you dont get it

<<<u're not liking a character's appearance? R u into moe? does that affect how you enjoy manga? Perhaps you should start a post called "I read and enjoy manga when the characters look like pretty boys and pretty girls". As for why I don't understand these terms...it's crazy bro--but I have a life and understand that all the japanese slang words in the world will not fill the hole that's in your heart Schmocky>>



again you absolutely dont get it--> lee is not a genius, being a "genius of hard work" means not being a genius at all, as i said he IS a genius of suiken, but that is a parodical trait and does not put him into the tensai group, composed of: (konoha gakure naruto generation only) sasuke and neiji (bloodline powers fully developed), shikamaru (iq over 200), maybe shino, who knows we dont know much about him, did i forget someone? naruto is the same as wthem, in addition to being a moron, thats why he is totally against the message of the story

<<This is your pinion and I feel for once u're being honest. U seem unduly harsh against Naruto which is I think missing the point of Kishimoto's storyline...I think even the start of the manga references how Naruto was shunned for the very reasons that you are making now--people who were jealous of something he was born with without his own doing>>


if training and hard work is supposed to bring you on the same level as those geniuses, why does he constantly rely on the kyuubi chakra, every time he uses tajuu kagebunshin no jutsu or rasengan, he is relying on it, and aside of that he has no redeeming skills, even though he is supposed to train SOOOO hard

<<< The kage bushin no jutsu is a skill that he proved to have early on..so syaing Naruto has no skills is misstated by you. He trained for a whole volume and half recently to perfect both forms of elemental energy for his updated resengan --so where do you seem to think our boy Naruto doesn't work hard? I actually agree with you about the Nine tails fox demon being a crutch but Kishimoto has done alot to express WHY Naruto DOESN'T USE it often--and what the affects are. Have you read the latest chapters?? I actually respect you for stating this cuz it's the closest to a real argument but schmocky..u're wrong..I hate to say that cuz unlike what you may think I don't like being condescending to earnest people and u've been a real ass up to now so you deserved it..but this issue with naruto's character is an honest statement..it's just wrong...u've misread what to me is clear. I can't attack you for it in good faith but I can say you're wrong. Please tell me where he used his Kyuubi power for ease of defeat--every time it's come out he either lost control (vs. haku) or had to use it to barely go toe to toe--(with sauske) so...tell me specific moments where he used it..please.>>>

rock lee is totally the opposite, lee is true to the mangas message, he can open omote renge (and the others, forgot how many) all by himself, without outside help, his teacher is not one of the legendary sannin, and still he succeeds in his training so much, lee (and many others) is a true hero of the story, while naruto is just a lying bastard, naruto himself knows about the kyuubi, but still pretends as if his "training" was the only thing that made him so "great" that HE should be hokage

<<lying bastard Harsh...but anyways, Naruto is hard working and inspirational. He posseses extra power but he CHOOSES not to use it. I love in this argument you have against Naruto's power...when u seem perfectly comforable attacking Naruto fans for not 'understanding' the japanese culture bit..bishonen and traits of most manga..it seems odd that the oldest Japanese tradition of the hero..posssessing extra power-- see Bleach, Dragonball, One Piece, Reborn and just about any long running shounen manga--- why should Naruto be attacked for this trait when every other manga has it? So, u think he's powerful and u think Sasuke's cute....so what>>>>>>

and lastly, YOU are trying to make me look bad cause i havent read the entire manga? then why does YOU who read and saw all chapters and eps NOT know what gaaras demon is called, kyuuNi? bullshit, its shukaku (thats the 1 tailed demon),. why again do you not know the very basics WHY? ive seen every ep only once and read every chapter to 211 only once as well, why do i know all that and you dont

<<<<whoah...WHOA--I NEVER TRIED TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD...........IN ALL FAIRNESS, YOU'RE DOING THAT YOURSELF >>>

also you comment about my nickname is just lame, do you know what it means, where it come from?

<<<I'm leaning towards a yaoi show that has to do with the Three Stooges--- am I right?>>>>>

do you speak the language its written it?

<<If it's yiddish--then no>>>

well i do, but why do you presume to understand the hidden meaning behind my nickname? isnt that called arrogance... and how do you call that if its paired with ignorance? you want to be over 30?

<<It's not arrogance or ignorance..it's called not giving a damn what a non-Naruto fan thinks about an argument for educated discussion of the work of Naruto. U want to bash it..create a bashing naruto board or talk about your favorite Bishie manga in that room. U come on here though and respond to a manga asking for an honest critique and you start sprouting japanese slang and attacking posters for being narutoards and u get what's coming..a verbal beatdown that exposes the silliness of your comments. lol--and trust me-u're a child bro..who the hell claims to be 30...I'd love to say I was 20 again but I'm not..learn to age well with wisdom..u're ina confused cynical stage right now schmocky..so, all I can say is don't rush intelligence..it'll come..take your time, read manga, continue your slang education and u'll grow to be a fine person...and schmocky..that's one to grow on>>

well i have over 1 decade to go for that <<<<<lol--my GF actually spit out her cofffee when she read that..and replied...NO SHIT>>>

, but even now i wouldnt create a thread in a community im barely acquainted to, with a title like "naruto is a masterpiece"... oh no it was "MASTERPIECE"

<<dude, those are fighting words...I'm acquiatted with it plenty..I like manga and I care enough to respond, I've made my list public and I have commented on many manga. I don't own you anything to request permission to post...I owned that right the minute I stepped on the board same as you. The difference is that I have actually educated myself on the manga and on manga products and choose to speak on it--and yeah Naruto is a Masterpiece. Perhaps if you create a manga as good as it I can respond with something you would like... a post called "Schmockyworld is a MASTERPIECE of lameness>>>>


oh lol and you know about pokemon... great, a 30yo pokemon watcher, youre just great, i didnt even know any character in that lame piece of trash would resemble my nickname

<<<I work in entertainment smartass. I know about Pokemon, Berserk and Futari Ecchi. Pray you never grow to 30--perhaps then if you re-read this and realize that you unlike the rest of us still live in the basement of your mom's house with your imaginary bishounen mate..then--- aww screw it..and actually..my company is producing Pokemon product..I'll check but last time I saw my art team's work they had a character named pipplup so I can believe something as sophisticated as schmocky is coming>>>

intelligence is mostly the ability to learn --> amount of knowledge gained/ time invested
i have a friend i introduced to anime half a year ago, and even he would never make such ridiculous embarassing mistakes you did, you shouldnt use the word "intelligent" in order to make other look bad

<<<lol--what are u a professor now? U've said nothing for this entire post except your understanding of japanese terms and now u want to drop it like u know something? Invest in a girlfriend, career, kids, family and a life and then re-read naruto--then come back to me. Perhaps if you spent less time with lollicons and bishonen you could acquire those.>>>

ah yes one more thing for you to LEARN, in japan graphical violence is not rated the same as e.g. in the states, thats why even though naruto is a manga for kids, people can die there, this is not the A-Team but aimed at the same generation

<<<I work with Japanese creators..I don't need to learn anything from you schmocky..u'd be amazed to know many mangka do not actually view their work as for kids no more than spielberg does. U're making an assumption which continues your dominance as the board's solely outspoken ass>>>

do you know what a "boon" is? its similar to daed --> dead

<<I know this american slang term..it's similar to schokomax-- jackass>>